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SL63 Mark

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Well, now Boris has delclared for the "out" campaign (what there is of it), that's me "in" then. I suspect he has made millions of people's decisions for them.
 
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Naraic

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Well, now Boris has delclared for the "out" campaign (what there is of it), that's me "in" then. I suspect he has made millions of people's decisions for them.

A cunning ploy by Dave and his mate?
 

PovertySpec

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What the UK needs (in my opinion) is even closer ties to the EU, not to leave it

Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? :D

Any foreign national faces the same problems when they travel or move to another country.

We almost moved to Netherlands and/or Germany. As a dual UK EU citizen you'd think it was easy.

Not so. We faced probably more issues than a Kiwi would moving to the UK including registering as an "alien"
 

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"UK border control is still amongst the tightest there is (aside from US/Aus) - trust me - I get to deal with them on a regular basis as I travel on an NZ passport. Even though I have Right to Abode (enabling me to use EU passport channels in and out of the UK) I am questioned at length as to why I have Right to Abode on about 1 in every 3 trips, and I'm not even from one of the 'risk' groups ethnically. I dread to think what anyone of middle eastern extraction goes through every time they go in or out of the UK. "


I do hope that's a joke because there are 300,000 a year that we know of waltzing through it laughing their heads off.
They can be just about anyone wanting to do anything.
 

LostKiwi

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Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? :D

Any foreign national faces the same problems when they travel or move to another country.

We almost moved to Netherlands and/or Germany. As a dual UK EU citizen you'd think it was easy.

Not so. We faced probably more issues than a Kiwi would moving to the UK including registering as an "alien"

Whether we were going to buy a house in France or not my view would still be the same. I really don't see how the UK can possibly be better off though becoming isolated.
 
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prwales

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My other half and I have plans to buy a house in France at some point in the next 2 years.
As a non-British person by birth I have no legal right to live in any EU country other than the UK.
This year I will be applying for UK citizenship and a UK passport as a means of getting the right to live in France. The passport application will cost me in excess of £1000 (yes that's right - £1000).

If England withdraws from the EU I (and many other people) will potentially lose the automatic right to live in any other EU member state. Many British people are now resident in Spain, France, Italy and elsewhere so what impact will this have on them. Many of those are pensioners so for them to return to the UK will cost the NHS and Social Services significant amounts of money.

On a business perspective many businesses have very close links to EU companies as either suppliers or customers for end products. If the EU removes the free trade in place through membership of the EU this could have a potentially disastrous effect on UK businesses.
Non UK companies with manufacturing plants in the UK (Nissan/BMW/Mini for example) may have less incentive to remain in the UK. Any upset in the UK manufacturing base could have a massive impact on employment, the economy and the UK as a whole.

Tourism - how many of us would relish going back to the old days of needing Visas for travel to anywhere? The long passport queues to get to your holiday destinations and so on? Then there is the french 'booze runs' - they would be subject to UK duty free allowance limits (so ending the personal importation of cheap wine for personal use. Same goes for the smokers.

Is the British economy strong enough to stand on its own without the support of its former colonies in the Commonwealth? The UK turned its back on its cheap sources of raw materials when it joined the EEC. As a Kiwi living in NZ at the time the UK joining the EEC had a massive impact on the NZ economy taking it from being one of the best standards of living to a near third world level within a very few short years. Its only in the past 10-15 years the NZ economy has returned to its previous levels.

What the UK needs (in my opinion) is even closer ties to the EU, not to leave it.
I understand some people having some fears over border control but thats largely (in my opinion) the result of press stirring coupled with the fanaticism of right wing people like Nigel Farage. UK border control is still amongst the tightest there is (aside from US/Aus) - trust me - I get to deal with them on a regular basis as I travel on an NZ passport. Even though I have Right to Abode (enabling me to use EU passport channels in and out of the UK) I am questioned at length as to why I have Right to Abode on about 1 in every 3 trips, and I'm not even from one of the 'risk' groups ethnically. I dread to think what anyone of middle eastern extraction goes through every time they go in or out of the UK.
The UK is unique in Europe in that it has never fully embraced joining Europe - its the only EU country not to use the Euro (which is great for the banks getting income from currency exchange). Its the only memebr state that still maintains border posts with its EU neighbours. A single United states of Europe would be a far better solution than what is in place now. The individual states in the US work cohesively - why can't the member states of Europe?
A border is nothing more than a source of irritation for many. Its a delineation between what one ethnic group has and another has not. Remove the border and you remove the source of irritation. If the poorer member states were to benefit in some way from the wealth in the richer states many of the concerns of economic migration could be removed. Who would want to move to the UK if they could have a similar standard of living in a warmer sunnier climate? This could be achieved with a central economic policy which prevents individual governments from being profligate and running up huge national debts.
No amount of jingoism/nationalism about making Britain great again will actually achieve it. The things that made Britain great are in the past never to return. They were the result of a world that was a very different place to the present and an ability to put large tracts of the world under British rule. Modern Britain, just like modern Europe needs to learn to get along and leave individual state nationalism behind and instead embrace a bigger and better nation state of Europe.

If you have Irish antecedents, and most of us have why not try them 1st, lots of reasons in favour, political neutrality, not having a monarchy amongst the obvious ones and of course its less money
 

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I really don't see how the UK can possibly be better off though becoming isolated.

We wouldn't be 'isolated' :rolleyes:

IF we get an out, IF, then everything will remain the same apart from the EU having a big flounce.

Some rules will need to be adapted, regulatory, trading etc. but if you think the shutters would go down and everything would grind to a halt whilst everyone figured out what to do next, you're mistaken.

There'll be a lot of this fear driven what-if-ism over the next few months :(
 

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If you have Irish antecedents, and most of us have why not try them 1st, lots of reasons in favour, political neutrality, not having a monarchy amongst the obvious ones and of course its less money

What does not having a monarchy have to do with a decision on where to live...?
 

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These scare stories are reminiscent and as vacuous as the millennium bug scare, on June 24th whichever way we vote the world will not end.

As the country witters back and forth the unelected EU bureaucrats are negotiating in private away many of the things we take for granted with America.
The risk is staying in as Europe implodes, fudged entry requirements, a tottering Euro and millions at its doors after reckless invitations from Angela Merkel et al.

Safe with the ECJ stopping us getting rid of terrorist cheer leaders ?
 

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funny a few weeks back i had this discussion with my parents and the in laws all four voted to stay in 1975. now all four are voting out.
I asked why.
They said at the time it was purely a trade item "common Market" not mission creep as what has happened now.

Then there was a little rant on the EU expansionism federal states of Europe etc,etc same as USSR mentality etc,etc
 
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What does not having a monarchy have to do with a decision on where to live...?

we are not a fully grown up nation nor a democracy when we have a head of state who is there due to an accident of birth
 

PovertySpec

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we are not a fully grown up nation nor a democracy when we have a head of state who is there due to an accident of birth

We are not fully grown up if we give a fig about a ceremonial head of state who is there due to lineage of birth.

I quite like the pomp and circumstance surrounding it, nobody does it better and the costumes are fabulous!
 

LostKiwi

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If you have Irish antecedents, and most of us have why not try them 1st, lots of reasons in favour, political neutrality, not having a monarchy amongst the obvious ones and of course its less money
Scottish not Irish.
Not a drop of Irish here.
 

LostKiwi

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"UK border control is still amongst the tightest there is (aside from US/Aus) - trust me - I get to deal with them on a regular basis as I travel on an NZ passport. Even though I have Right to Abode (enabling me to use EU passport channels in and out of the UK) I am questioned at length as to why I have Right to Abode on about 1 in every 3 trips, and I'm not even from one of the 'risk' groups ethnically. I dread to think what anyone of middle eastern extraction goes through every time they go in or out of the UK. "


I do hope that's a joke because there are 300,000 a year that we know of waltzing through it laughing their heads off.
They can be just about anyone wanting to do anything.

Not a joke at all. Totally serious and my personal experience.
The 300,000 you mention are EU citizens so have rights under the EU. In my experience they tend to be hard working and conscientious and more than a few employers rate them highly.
 
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Frontstep

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we are not a fully grown up nation nor a democracy when we have a head of state who is there due to an accident of birth

I feel quite grown up and don't worry about a ceremonial head of state and their theoretical legitimacy.

Although come back when or maybe if C&C get themselves on their thrones, I may turn :)
 

SL63 Mark

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A cunning ploy by Dave and his mate?

Cameron's played a blinder, as Alan Johnson said yesterday, the Cabinet rebels are hardly the brightest stars in the political firmament, (IDS, Gove, and now wait for it ... Boris)

I hear there are over 100 Tory MPs supporting Brexit, so Dave'll have his work cut out to keep that lot in line. Looks like the Tory party is set to fall apart over Europe as it did in the 1990s. Still look on the bright side, we've got four months of this chaos to look forward to while the government of the country is put on hold, and no-one can make a sensible decision.
 

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Still look on the bright side, we've got four months of this chaos to look forward to while the government of the country is put on hold, and no-one can make a sensible decision.

will we notice the difference? ;);)
 

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When we were out, we were desperate to get in!

That was for entry to the Common Market for trading. Absolutely nothing to do with allowing rule from Brussels, which is the prime concern of the EU.
 

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we are not a fully grown up nation nor a democracy when we have a head of state who is there due to an accident of birth

Sorry Prwales, but I call it that you're talking bollocks.

The Monarch has an important position that is not often seen in governments nowadays- and I'm especially looking at those with shared heads of State & Government, such as the US. The Monarch holds the power to decide whether or not a Government is fit to be formed. This in turn affects everything from the power of the rule of law, to the legitimacy of the government to govern.

Whether her Maj is there through "accident of birth" or not is, in this case, immaterial to the system of government that we have. However, as it stands, this is a lady who has been in her position for 60 odd years; do not underestimate either her or the Monarchy as a whole for what it does.

Besides which, without her we wouldn't get the pomp. And that, to an ex squaddy, is just ace. I love parades.
 
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