anti diesel idea not working.....

[bembo449]

these batteries are built into the floor area on most cars of this type , so building a generic battery car wouldn't be an option I don't feel , its certainly possible though

 

[LostKiwi]

How about making cars with easily and quickly replacement batteries that fit all cars. The idea being to pull into a fuel station and swap your nearly expired battery for a fully charged one without having to wait for a charge. It must be possible. A credit could be given for the amount of energy remaining in your replaced battery. Just a thought!!

The issue is the batteries themselves have a lifetime. How do you take into account the difference in charge capacity of a new battery vs an end of life one?

 

[geraldrobins]

The issue is the batteries themselves have a lifetime. How do you take into account the difference in charge capacity of a new battery vs an end of life one?

Its just an alternative idea. Surely the charge capacity can be measured? And batteries over a certain age could be recycled.

 

[LostKiwi]

Its just an alternative idea. Surely the charge capacity can be measured? And batteries over a certain age could be recycled.

It would also require batteries to be leased. I wouldn't be happy buying a new battery then having it swapped for one of unknown age/condition at the next top up.

 

[oigle]

Not so easy. Batteries for electric cars weigh heaps. Not like a normal battery - they are heavy enough. Battery tech will have to improve a lot to make that feasible.

Ian.

 

[geraldrobins]

Not so easy. Batteries for electric cars weigh heaps. Not like a normal battery - they are heavy enough. Battery tech will have to improve a lot to make that feasible.

Ian.

Battery technology will need to move on anyway. but we have to look at all options surely.

 

[LostKiwi]

The easiest route is to improve charging times. That will require changes in battery tech and charger technology but it's already happening.

 

[3146bj]

Any doubts about supply infrastructure ability to service new fuel sources are a red herring! 120 years ago there was very little infrastructure to deliver private use fossil fuel that didn't involve sacks and a horse! And things were much the same with electricity. The only real land transport system was coal and water powered railways, and they didn't exist either 100 years before that.

Long term these things will evolve, driven by demand and the desire to make a profit.

A couple of points re infrastructure to supply hydrogen as a fuel:

1. The risk of fire when transporting and storing hydrogen is many orders of magnitude higher than transporting and storing petrol as the flammable range of hydrogen is between 1% and 94% of hydrogen by volume in air compared with between 2% and 8% by vapour volume in air for petrol (n.b. these are rounded numbers and can vary slightly).
2. A liquid petrol leak is usually visible and can be smelled while hydrogen is an invisible, odourless gas, so a hydrogen leak may not be as easily detected as a petrol leak.
3. As a leak may not be detected as early, and because of its wider flammable range, the area within which ignition may occur is much larger than with petrol.

These points can all be dealt with at the design phase, but will result in higher transport and storage costs.

At a different point in the supply chain, hydrogen will probably be produced by electrolysis of water, imposing a huge load on an electricity infrastructure which is already struggling to cope, so upgrading will be necessary at further massive cost, as well as consequent increase in generation requirements.

So the apparent easy option of using hydrogen powered vehicles carries many unforeseen consequences and costs, before it can be considered anywhere near viable.

 

[oigle]

The easiest route is to improve charging times. That will require changes in battery tech and charger technology but it's already happening.

And longevity of battery too if they want folks to buy them.

 

[LostKiwi]

And longevity of battery too if they want folks to buy them.

Or drop the cost down to a level where its 'acceptable'.

 

[C350Carl]

Be a little tricky to monitor....

On the contrary, it would be very very easy. They can either get it direct from the car if it is "connected to the tinterwebz" or they do it when it goes in for any yearly maintenance/MOT.

 

[C350Carl]

The way forwards is allegedly Solid State Batteries. These can do over 500 miles on a single charge and recharge in 1 minute! (although i do wonder how thick the cable will be to provide 500miles of juice in 1 minute!)

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/16037/...ad-to-500-mile-ev-range-1-minute-charge-times.

As for swapping the battery. Tesla demonstrated that they can do it on the model S in 3 mins. But I think they abandoned the idea. Far more beneficial to charge (no pun intended) a customer circa £15k for a new battery after 8yrs.

Speaking of which this is what currently puts me off buying the likes of a Tesla. I would happily have a used approved one but i wouldn't want to be lumbered with that bill at the 8yr point!

 

[John Laidlaw]

I’ve been in the ‘older’ Tesla (taxi in Amsterdam) couple of times and it was pretty horrible inside/utilitarian seating etc. Switch gear was good (I’m biased), but everything else just cheap plasticky 90’s Nissan/Datsun feel.
New ones are much nicer.
I’m sticking with rocket juice as long as I can....

 

[Craiglxviii]

I’ve been in the ‘older’ Tesla (taxi in Amsterdam) couple of times and it was pretty horrible inside/utilitarian seating etc. Switch gear was good (I’m biased), but everything else just cheap plasticky 90’s Nissan/Datsun feel.
New ones are much nicer.
I’m sticking with rocket juice as long as I can....

What, you run your car on kerosene?

 

[colin ling]

A couple of points re infrastructure to supply hydrogen as a fuel:

1. The risk of fire when transporting and storing hydrogen is many orders of magnitude higher than transporting and storing petrol as the flammable range of hydrogen is between 1% and 94% of hydrogen by volume in air compared with between 2% and 8% by vapour volume in air for petrol (n.b. these are rounded numbers and can vary slightly).
2. A liquid petrol leak is usually visible and can be smelled while hydrogen is an invisible, odourless gas, so a hydrogen leak may not be as easily detected as a petrol leak.
3. As a leak may not be detected as early, and because of its wider flammable range, the area within which ignition may occur is much larger than with petrol.

These points can all be dealt with at the design phase, but will result in higher transport and storage costs.

At a different point in the supply chain, hydrogen will probably be produced by electrolysis of water, imposing a huge load on an electricity infrastructure which is already struggling to cope, so upgrading will be necessary at further massive cost, as well as consequent increase in generation requirements.

So the apparent easy option of using hydrogen powered vehicles carries many unforeseen consequences and costs, before it can be considered anywhere near viable.

Why not produce the Hydrogen on site ?
Solar panels could be used to produce the electricity and converted to Hydrogen it can be stored and then used easily. An English company ITM Power appear to make the equipment capable of the conversion. This idea is more appealing to me than driving round with half a ton of batteries. Electricity from the grid could be the backup

 

[John Laidlaw]

What, you run your car on kerosene?

Didn’t you know? Blend of that and Glenlivet 18YO....

 

[LostKiwi]

Why not produce the Hydrogen on site ?
Solar panels could be used to produce the electricity and converted to Hydrogen it can be stored and then used easily. An English company ITM Power appear to make the equipment capable of the conversion. This idea is more appealing to me than driving round with half a ton of batteries. Electricity from the grid could be the backup

The energy density of Hydrogen is its biggest problem.
Hydrogen compressed to 700bar has an energy density of 9.17MJ/Litre
By comparison...
Methane: 22.2 MJ/L (also compressed to liquid form)
LPG: 26 MJ/L
Petrol: 34.2MJ/L
Diesel: 35.8MJ/L
Paraffin (Kerosene): 37.4 MJ/L
Coal: ~38MJ/L
Uranium: 1,539,842,000MJ/L (in fission reactors).

Li-ION batteries (currently): <2.63MJ/L (but these are relatively easily integrated into the vehicle structure).

To put this into perspective... You would need 4 times as much Hydrogen as Diesel to cover the same distance so to get sufficient range to be usable you would 4 times the fuel capacity (and thats before you start factoring in the size and weight of the storage vessel vessel capable of containing the fuel safely at 700bar!

 

[Craiglxviii]

The energy density of Hydrogen is its biggest problem.
Hydrogen compressed to 700bar has an energy density of 9.17MJ/Litre
By comparison...
Methane: 22.2 MJ/L (also compressed to liquid form)
LPG: 26 MJ/L
Petrol: 34.2MJ/L
Diesel: 35.8MJ/L
Paraffin (Kersoene): 37.4 MJ/L
Coal: ~38MJ/L
Uranium: 1,539,842,000MJ/L (in fission reactors).

Li-ION batteries (currently): <2.63MJ/L (but these are relatively easily integrated into the vehicle structure).

To put this into perspective... You would need 4 times as much Hydrogen as Diesel to cover the same distance so to get sufficient range to be usable you would 4 times the fuel capacity (and thats before you start factoring in the size and weight of the storage vessel vessel capable of containing the fuel safely at 700bar!

I would be interested in seeing the cost for the pressure vessel needed for that H at 700bar, that will remain stable during the crash tests!!!

 

[Craiglxviii]

The key thing I’m taking away though is that Alastair evidently wants a coal- powered car

 

[LostKiwi]

The key thing I’m taking away though is that Alastair evidently wants a coal- powered car

Uranium please.....
Would make 1000hp and 20,000 mile range a breeze (Just need to shrink the reactor!)