Manchester attack news

[Craiglxviii]

Maybe we can keep this one on The events surrounding Manchester and not allow it to degrade into racism. That would be appreciated.

So. Dynamic explosive entry made into Abedi's apartment. 4 arrests made including his brother. Police made aware of his terrorist sympathies 5 years ago. Some evidence that he was used by as- yet- unnamed others as a bomb mule to take the IED into the Arena.

14 of the dead have been named. One was an off duty police officer.

 

[Yugguy]

Born in a country that gave his parents refuge from oppression in Libya.

 

[Painter16]

Think it's hard not to bring racism into it ,just seen pics of them young kids how can you not get angry with this lot sorry chuck me off here if you want but I won't change me mind on how I feel after this now

 

[Rappey69]

Probably easier to watch the news, or look online ? Cant see there is a lot to discuss other than expressing our anger at what has happened ?

 

[davemercedes]

Of course "watching" is a numbers game the "spooks" play... but it's rather worrying that the first announcement says "he (Salman Abedi) was known as a peripheral with speculation that he acted alone" ...then less than 24 hours later he was reportedly ..."part of a terrorist network" - and that leaves me worrying if it's developing intelligence or pure guesswork.

Interesting question on The Wright Stuff panel-chat program (Channel 5) this morning:

Does the public feel assured by the army being deployed on the streets (UK approves by 90%). The question was followed by stats showing the increased incidents and deaths in France since they did that (with about 90% approval).

Every armed PC in UK has gone through specific training including a mental strength/suitability test and they have to go through a retest once a year. There is no such test for army personnel (as my army weapons training instructor told me over 50 years ago as he gave me a gun: "you're a hired killer" - no questions on my mental agility etc!) so although they say the army bods will be under police control, nobody can know what may happen if an emergency situation arises. I would hope any service personnel who may get attached to the police service will receive some basic training but in the time available it doesn't look easy at all.

I still feel terrible about these young kids as I'm sure we all do.
- I sincerely hope his contacts will be persuaded to talk.

 

[LostKiwi]

I see pretty much the entire family has been arrested, even the ones in Libya.

 

[Naraic]

Think it's hard not to bring racism into it ,just seen pics of them young kids how can you not get angry with this lot sorry chuck me off here if you want but I won't change me mind on how I feel after this now

You can...but I may still close it if it goes further than I want.

 

[Painter16]

I see pretty much the entire family has been arrested, even the ones in Libya.

Good

 

[M80]

Take That have cancelled gigs,
Ariana Grande has cancelled gigs in London, Poland, Belgium and Germany.
Is this on advice of the authorities? If not this is a good opportunity to show defiance to Daesh, but that would take some balls. Although I don't consider the artists to be at risk their fans might well be, hence the question of it being under advice.

 

[C350Carl]

Of course "watching" is a numbers game the "spooks" play... but it's rather worrying that the first announcement says "he (Salman Abedi) was known as a peripheral with speculation that he acted alone" ...then less than 24 hours later he was reportedly ..."part of a terrorist network" - and that leaves me worrying if it's developing intelligence or pure guesswork.

Interesting question on The Wright Stuff panel-chat program (Channel 5) this morning:

Does the public feel assured by the army being deployed on the streets (UK approves by 90%). The question was followed by stats showing the increased incidents and deaths in France since they did that (with about 90% approval).

Every armed PC in UK has gone through specific training including a mental strength/suitability test and they have to go through a retest once a year. There is no such test for army personnel (as my army weapons training instructor told me over 50 years ago as he gave me a gun: "you're a hired killer" - no questions on my mental agility etc!) so although they say the army bods will be under police control, nobody can know what may happen if an emergency situation arises. I would hope any service personnel who may get attached to the police service will receive some basic training but in the time available it doesn't look easy at all.

I still feel terrible about these young kids as I'm sure we all do.
- I sincerely hope his contacts will be persuaded to talk.

Dave,

Op Temperer has been in place since the Mumbai attacks. Anyone who is on Op Temperer is given specific training, especially those who are working along side armed police. This is done months prior and continues during the time they are held on notice. That bit I wouldn't expect you to know. But having done the training myself and also taught the training the soldiers are just as capable as the police. The only difference is they can't deploy without the specific authority of the Home Secretary at the request of the police. This has now been granted.

However the soldiers are used to standing guard as they do it all the time at camps, Buckingham palace etc. So they are not going to react any differently to the armed police you normally see around places like Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace etc. So those stood guarding airports, sporting events etc are not doing anything different to if, for example, they guard a camp and it has an open day.

ALL soldiers have to go through certain tests every year. These include Rules of Engagement (ROE) specific to being in the UK.

You also have to remember that, if soldiers do deploy with SCO19 officers, they will be responding to a Mumbai/Paris style attack. So the ROE will be pretty straight forwards.

 

[Naraic]

Take That have cancelled gigs,
Ariana Grande has cancelled gigs in London, Poland, Belgium and Germany.
Is this on advice of the authorities? If not this is a good opportunity to show defiance to Daesh, but that would take some balls. Although I don't consider the artists to be at risk their fans might well be, hence the question of it being under advice.

I suspect that young Ariana Grande will be affected by this for some time to come.

 

[davemercedes]

I suspect that young Ariana Grande will be affected by this for some time to come.

Definitely - I see she's just 23.
- Still fortunately she should be surrounded by "worldly" people who should help her.
- But I can't see it not having a mental impact on her - I hope she's okay.

- And I really hope the police/security are close to putting the lid on this one and shutting down anything the network (if there is one) had planned.

 

[Painter16]

You can...but I may still close it if it goes further than I want.

Do what ya want mate

 

[triumphstag]

Take That have cancelled gigs,
Ariana Grande has cancelled gigs in London, Poland, Belgium and Germany.
Is this on advice of the authorities? If not this is a good opportunity to show defiance to Daesh, but that would take some balls. Although I don't consider the artists to be at risk their fans might well be, hence the question of it being under advice.

Simple minds went ahead with theirs and stated they did so as they felt it would be cowardly to cancel.

 

[LostKiwi]

Weren't Take That going to perform at the same venue the attack happened? If so hardly surprising it was canned.

 

[Xtractorfan]

Right to cancel gigs that are happening anywhere near to Manchester, purely as a mark of respect to the dead and injured, who cares what Daesh or their supporters think. The Rally held afterwards said all that was needed to them.
As for troops on the streets, I'm in favour of it, I think it does bring a sense of safety and security to the people out walking the streets, and going about their everyday business. The people of Manchester need to see action as well as hear about it.
Questions will now be asked about the role of the security services (spooks) and their knowledge of the perp. (to use a Craig n Carl phrase) and why he wasn't under surveillance. But that is for another day.
For some reason or other as more details and names are released, it gets more agonising as they are all young beautiful people.
And the actions of the many who helped is a fantastic testament to the spirit of the people.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Remember what the squaddies are there for. MACP- Military Assistance to the Civil Power. Their role is to take over the static guard duties normally undertaken by the police, to allow the police to expand their operations. So they have several effects- a force multiplier for da fuzz, and a visible armed presence for John Q Public. All good there.

Right, numbers time. First, surveillance. To keep one suspect under 24hr physical surveillance requires a minimum of 30 people. More if that surveillance is dynamic e.g. involves driving. Five admitted that they have 3000 people "of interest" so if they were to keep physical tabs on them all would require 90,000 staff to do so. Put in perspective, that is the entire Army structure.

Secondly, there have been 5 terrorist plots disrupted and foiled since the March 22nd Westminster attack. That's a pretty clear indicator that the UK is under sustained terrorist attack. So, the question is one of priorities. We will never be able to stop every one, especially with this home grown/ "sleeper"/ self radicalisation phenomenon we are seeing now.

 

[M80]

I totally accept the points made about the cancelling of gigs. The artists are humans too, and the same venue (I hadn't realised), and as a mark of respect.
Aside from the advice of the authorities it being a personal choice for the artists and fans is reasonable.

Prevention being better than cure trying to minimise the effect of such an act is part of the battle. That's difficult is it has such a massive effect on so many directly, and on the likes of us here in a less direct way. A person would have to be stone not to feel the emotion of all this.

The mind game Daesh are playing is the tricky bit. Their supporters are 'possibly' too late for us to re convert, but the numbers that are potential recruits might grow if they are persuaded they can be a part of an increasingly successful group.
This one little sh*t has gained a notoriety that would have been impossible for him otherwise, no doubt he will be a hero in Daesh circles and used with "and you could be a hero too" style persuasion to the low life's that are listening to such cr*p.
An education that there are only prunes waiting and not virgins has value.
Enjoy this life because there is uncertainty as to what really waits beyond, if we can overcome the strong persuaders of the death cult.

I'm not a subscriber to any type of religious thinking but see value in trying to understand Islam better. A part of the fear Deash are enjoying is that Islam is a mystery to most of us and with that is the belief, for many, that they are all like that. Islamophobia, while being understandable, assists the ambitions of the death cult.

 

[C350Carl]

Remember what the squaddies are there for. MACP- Military Assistance to the Civil Power. Their role is to take over the static guard duties normally undertaken by the police, to allow the police to expand their operations. So they have several effects- a force multiplier for da fuzz, and a visible armed presence for John Q Public. All good there.

Right, numbers time. First, surveillance. To keep one suspect under 24hr physical surveillance requires a minimum of 30 people. More if that surveillance is dynamic e.g. involves driving. Five admitted that they have 3000 people "of interest" so if they were to keep physical tabs on them all would require 90,000 staff to do so. Put in perspective, that is the entire Army structure.

Secondly, there have been 5 terrorist plots disrupted and foiled since the March 22nd Westminster attack. That's a pretty clear indicator that the UK is under sustained terrorist attack. So, the question is one of priorities. We will never be able to stop every one, especially with this home grown/ "sleeper"/ self radicalisation phenomenon we are seeing now.

Showing your age now Craig.

A couple of corrections if I may.

MACP tasks for CT are not specifically static guards. There are a no. of troops (I'm not going to say how many) that work directly alongside the CTSFO teams. They are the ones that I alluded to further up who train months prior and during the time they are on Op Temperer. This does not include the SF as they have a different role than that of the police and CTSFO's. They do conduct joint operations. But they have a different role.

To keep a suspect under 24hr surveillance does not require 30 at all and hasn't done since early 2000's. Dynamic surveillance can require up to 34 but this is not for monitoring 1 individual. Some types require around 45. The usual no. for 24hr is 20. Some of the surveillance can be done remotely/technically. Hence the reduction in no.s.

The 3000 of interest are Jihadist/Islamist extremists only. It doesn't include other people that the intelligence services are required to monitor. They have to prioritise the individuals into the worst/most dangerous of the fcukwits. Then monitor those 24/7.

Now for some other points.

When it is published that the individual is 'known' to the intelligence services it doesn't mean that they knew they were someone who would go and blow themselves up etc.

As an example. They are monitoring fcukwit A. One day fcukwit B meets with A and gives him some money. B is then investigated and apart from looking at a few Jihadi websites and doing a few fundraising activities (petty theft and selling stolen goods/drugs) to raise money, which isn't a significant amount, doesn't have any other contact with A or any of A's other associates. They continue to closely check on B for a few months but as it is not yielding much if any actionable intelligence the intelligence services will drastically reduce or pull the surveillance to use their limited resources on those that will give them the actionable intelligence.

Fcukwit B then decides a few years later, for some unknown reason, that he will gain the knowledge to make a bomb, buy a daysack and then blow himself up.

That is unfortunately extremely hard to combat without having the resources to monitor every single person of interest 24/7. This includes having the technical equipment to do so.

To put in perspective. To monitor every single person of interest to UK intelligence services 24/7 who are in the UK would take the combined efforts of all UK, USA and Israeli intelligence agents and technical equipment.

The other problem with just deporting them is that the vast majority are born in the UK. So where do you deport them to? If you round them all up and put them in a Guantanamo style prison then it would take the whole of the British Army and Police to conduct a simultaneous arrest in one night (or you'd lose some of them). How then do you think the population would react if you suddenly arrested 3000 Muslims? You would enrage a lot of the Muslim community and create more terrorists. At the very least you'd be creating a situation where they would start to sympathise and turn a blind eye to what they do.

We have to remember that our intelligence services are revered as the best in the world. It's why we have so many liaison teams training others around the world and doing joint operations.

As Craig has said. We will never stop it completely and I mentioned the following in a previous thread. The words of the IRA after the Brighton bombing are still as true now as they were back then.

These fcukwits only have to be lucky once. We have to be lucky always.

 

[Craiglxviii]

My age? Pah. My car does 18 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it!

I do like the idea of Mossad doing CTR though.

<local coroner ends up with 73 suspects bodies each with a .22" hole in the right temple>

Five operative: "We asked you to conduct close surveillance!"
Mossad operative: "We had ammunition surplus to use up..."