A Class making a slight rattle noise on start up, goes away after 2 miles

area51

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more money than sense then pal , no A class bar the 45 AMG warrants such a high performance oil , its no better for the car

I got into the habit of using Mobil1 when I had a 16v Golf GTI. I have worked in the motor trade for 40 years and have seen what poor quality/incorrect oil can do to an engine. I get a very good discount on the oil and intend to keep my car for a while yet (Rightly or wrongly, I like it a lot).
 
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Submariner1

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I got into the habit of using Mobil1 when I had a 16v Golf GTI. I have worked in the motor trade for 40 years and have seen what poor quality/incorrect oil can do to an engine. I get a very good discount on the oil and intend to keep my car for a while yet (Rightly or wrongly, I like it a lot).

I am no expert but I even use it on my Honda Proffessional lawn mower. Wtf!
Why ...
Well the official annual service cost is £278! ... I noticed by using Mobil 1. The oil stays super clean .. note it has no filter. So I just change it 3 times a year. Takes 5 mins. And total cost £24 in oil per year.
Never had its official annual service.
And the engine tappets settings, that is specified to adjust annually; has never changed since 2008, and the same on Mothers 1991 Honda!
Whether this is contributing to keeping the tappets perfect by zero wear, who knows or cares!
I’ll be dammed if I am going to pay £278 for a service on a flipping lawnmower. The rest of the maintenance is just greasing cables and the drive joints etc. And I change the Hydrostatic drive fluid every 4 years.

Another tip!
Apparently you officially need to dechoke the head every other year. ( Obviously based on reccomendations for contract gardeners).
I did pay to have the cylinder head taken off Mums one, after 20 years! Both I and the mechanic were shocked to find a speaky clean head and valves seats and stems like polished chrome ... all down to meticulously using Shell V Power petrol from new (self cleaning crap in it, was his only explanation.!) The mechanic said normally after 4 years they are black solid choked up, and the valve stems and seals are covered in black carbon!

So sometimes it pays to go overboard! Lol :)
 
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Submariner1

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if you have not done so, change the tensioner ,its not big cash, saves a major ball ache and that eliminates that, i will be changing mine anyway, they are a known issue and why wait for it to fail, as said seal is issue goes hard .maybe you can change that.o ring i am led to believe,will look WIS next time it rains too busy as the mo

Seems sensible .. costs £85 ... cheaper than the cost of petrol to an INdy and an hours labour.
OK it might not be the problem, but as you say ... known to fail, so maybe treat it as preventative maintenance ... and a lot easier than getting the poly belt off.

My logic is anything related to the poly belt wont cause a big engine failure, like say jumping a tooth. So avoiding big bills.

I noticed there is nothing on WIS ref that sealing ring . But on EPC there is a washer called a “sealing ring” just before the end nut. See part # 35.
Do you think that is the seal they say hardens and leaks?

1D35E274-07CF-47C6-A533-B2DEB00EAA18.jpeg


Somehow I can’t see it being the culprit, as it is external .. and there is no evidence of it leaking externally cos its bone dry around there.

I note the plug part #41 is called a “screw plug filling”, so sadly my take is, that is just a washer to seal the filling plug ... i.e. not the seal that gives up causing loss of pressure on the piston part.??

So my conclusion is its not a serviceable item.

Shame as thats obviously a lot less than £85 :)
 
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mrmb

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This seal is metal and prevent the oil leaking from it. It is like an oil sump washer.
 
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Submariner1

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Here is the Nasty noise after first starting her up today ... from “cold” but a warm day,
About 30 secs into the video. And 1.30 secs into the video
Within 2 minutes this noise has gone and cant be replicated.
To make the noise, from idle press the throttle quickly to get the revs to say 1,200 or 1,500 rpm and immediately back off. Its most noticeable on the back off. So basically stab the throttle and the noise appears as you back off the pedal.

( ignore the engine sway, wife jambed the iPhone against the bonnet support rod so its going in and out of focus, the engine stops shaking at circa 750 rpm)

My best guess its the chain tensioner, having lost oil pressure. Hence its loose and thus noisy, then as the oil pressure is built up .. it starts to work properly (or better) and the noise goes away.

Any views
 

ajlsl600

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i aggree. cant see yr vidio ? but as you say its on the overun i think thats slack chain, if so ,be careful its not likely to get any better. maybe after a few min running the tensioner gets enough oil , press to shove the tensioner out and tho hard seal leaks ,there is enough to solve the issue for that day , i had another rattle related to idle ,was plastic part touching metal at very low idle , lift idle a few 100 issue gone. if you have the chance maybe interview tensioner if you see baked o ring change and try, however still best to change if possible.
 

mrmb

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Replace tensioner and hopefully the problem will go away.
 
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Submariner1

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i aggree. cant see yr vidio ? but as you say its on the overun i think thats slack chain, if so ,be careful its not likely to get any better. maybe after a few min running the tensioner gets enough oil , press to shove the tensioner out and tho hard seal leaks ,there is enough to solve the issue for that day , i had another rattle related to idle ,was plastic part touching metal at very low idle , lift idle a few 100 issue gone. if you have the chance maybe interview tensioner if you see baked o ring change and try, however still best to change if possible.

Thanks, yes I will replace the tensioner.
Not sure why you cant see video? Seems to be up there.

Can one adjust the idle ? Or is it preset by the EIS or whatever.
 

ajlsl600

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further to my earlier. i have been researching ahead of doing my own a class chain .i discover, there is an internal o ring in that tensioner, apparently it goes hard, i mentioned this before. the oil drains out and when next started it rattles its head off until oil gets around, in yr case the o ring may be split and therefore the tensioner does not operate as intended . i am not next to yr car, but fairly confident this is issue. best changed asap before issue gets , worse would be my view. consider chain change shortly or at the same time .
 
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Submariner1

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further to my earlier. i have been researching ahead of doing my own a class chain .i discover, there is an internal o ring in that tensioner, apparently it goes hard, i mentioned this before. the oil drains out and when next started it rattles its head off until oil gets around, in yr case the o ring may be split and therefore the tensioner does not operate as intended . i am not next to yr car, but fairly confident this is issue. best changed asap before issue gets , worse would be my view. consider chain change shortly or at the same time .

I agree, going to let Forrera do it.
He said first change the tensioner, and also clean out the air breather tube and the throttle body to hopefully increase the tickover rpm ( thinks its a little slow ) to eradicate the low revs engine shake.

From the videos he thinks the tensioner is a little sluggish building up pressure, and suggested we start engine and leave for 2 mins (if driven during that period the nasty rattle would appear) and then drive it i.e. avoiding the time the tensioner is too slack. Just until we can get it in.

He is also hoping the top end tappet noise will go away when he uses his 10W40 fully synth. Oil (he reckons A Classes do better on this than my usual 0W40).

If its still noisy, then take it further i.e. does it need a new timing chain or chain guides.

Obviously all subject to hearing it himself.

He is hopeful that the chain is OK as the majority of any driving the wife has done, with the suspect tensioner not operating properly would be minimal duration. Naturally its not ideal but done now.
He’s fairly optimistic that once the initial start oeriod is over the chain is being tensioned enough to avoid damage.

For others where the tensioner has totally failed, he strongly advises against driving it like that! You can wear the sprockets and guides pretty severely in a short period of time. Plus if not tensioned driving at normal revs the chain links can be wrecked quickly. He is optimistic we caught it in time. :)

We got lucky, in that the wife drives very slowly and she would be crawling just getting out of the driveway and then the narrow part of our road i.e. by the time she accellerates over 1,000 rpm its build up period is over. :)
 

ajlsl600

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thats the right guy for that... i have taken his and lofty,s advise a number of times . let us know how it turns out ,you might ask him if he knows where to get an ecconomic,use once timing chain splitter ,riviter .i hear one of the motorbike vesions can work ,dont know which i have been unable to contact him... failing which i will mill out my own version.... do you have a phone nuber for him ?
 
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Submariner1

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thats the right guy for that... i have taken his and lofty,s advise a number of times . let us know how it turns out ,you might ask him if he knows where to get an ecconomic,use once timing chain splitter ,riviter .i hear one of the motorbike vesions can work ,dont know which i have been unable to contact him... failing which i will mill out my own version.... do you have a phone nuber for him ?

Sorry just saw this question wierdly I didnt get an alert

02087414510

Mobile 07733 115969

He works in his own I think, so maybe under a car etc. I try his mobile ... always get through the same day.
 

ajlsl600

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Sorry just saw this question wierdly I didnt get an alert

02087414510

Mobile 07733 115969

He works in his own I think, so maybe under a car etc. I try his mobile ... always get through the same day.


cheers. i have a few questions myself...
 
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Submariner1

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Timing Chain issues ALL SORTED! :):)

1. Migrating from Mobil1 0W40 to Mobil1 5W50 (recommended by Sevan Motors and Mobil UK) significantly quietened the engine’s tappety noise. It also speeded up the Tensioner getting to full pressure.

2. Changing the ancient but still reasonably clean Air filter, boosted the idle rpm from 500 rpm to 550.

3. The new chain tensioner increased the Idle rpm to to 650 rpm. And made the engine sound sliky smooth, no rattling.

4. luckily as the tensioner worked al ost perfectly after the initial 2 minute start up issues, and partially during the 2 min initial start up period; Sevan Motors are positive no adverse effect on the actual timing chain occurred ... so a big relief.
Note if the Tensioner fails completely it ideally needs changing instantly.

With hindsight, definitely worth buying the new Tensioner at disc. Price of £76, and getting Sevan to fit it for £50 ... imo very very reasonable as the A 160 Petrol Auto with AC is a totsl b*tch to get at the Tensioner’s rear bolt. (I fiddled around for hours trying various combos of wobble bars, universal joints, 3/8 and 1/4” drives to no avail). Note it looks easy to get to it.

I just didnt feel comfortable disconnecting the Coolant feed and return and the Electric air injection change over valve.
No lift, no container for the Coolant etc. Plus I needed to know what the status of the timing chain was in, after the fix. Very reassuring to hear from an expert, that the engine sounded excellent.

Plus he sorted the suspension graunch noise :):) and went over everything on the suspension, engine mounts, ARB and checked that I fitted the drop link rods, air filter, and oil filter properly ;)


Hope this info is helpful to someone.
 

mrmb

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Took me 2h to do it myself at home. My dad couldn't do it as his hands where to big to fit into the small space between the engine and the front wall :-D I have done it but I was cursing through the process as never before. Guys my advice is, do not do it unless you have a lot of patience.
 

mattkh

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Took me 2h to do it myself at home. My dad couldn't do it as his hands where to big to fit into the small space between the engine and the front wall :-D I have done it but I was cursing through the process as never before. Guys my advice is, do not do it unless you have a lot of patience.
What socket did you use, a torx or standard hex?
Secondly, did you need to put any penetrating oil on the bolt?
 

mrmb

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I haven't put any penetrating oil on the bolt. I used a Torx to get the screw out. You have to make sure that torx will fit good into the screw otherwise you are risking to break the head of it and then: Huston we have a problem!
 
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Submariner1

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Timing Chain issues ALL SORTED! :):)

1. Migrating from Mobil1 0W40 to Mobil1 5W50 (recommended by Sevan Motors and Mobil UK) significantly quietened the engine’s tappety noise. It also speeded up the Tensioner getting to full pressure.

2. Changing the ancient but still reasonably clean Air filter, boosted the idle rpm from 500 rpm to 550.

3. The new chain tensioner increased the Idle rpm to to 650 rpm. And made the engine sound sliky smooth, no rattling.

4. luckily as the tensioner worked almost perfectly after the initial 2 minute start up issues, and partially during the 2 min initial start up period; Sevan Motors are positive no adverse effect on the actual timing chain occurred ... so a big relief.
Note if the Tensioner fails completely it ideally needs changing instantly.

With hindsight, definitely worth buying the new Tensioner at disc. Price of £76, and getting Sevan to fit it for £50 ... imo very very reasonable as the A 160 Petrol Auto with AC is a totsl b*tch to get at the Tensioner’s rear bolt. (I fiddled around for hours trying various combos of wobble bars, universal joints, 3/8 and 1/4” drives to no avail). Note it looks easy to get to it.

I just didnt feel comfortable disconnecting the Coolant feed and return and the air pressure valve thing. No lift, no container for the Coolant etc. Plus I needed to know what the status of the timing chain was in, after the fix. Very reassuring to hear from an expert that the engine sounded excellent.

Hope this info is helpful to someone.
 

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