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  1. flaggin wagon

    flaggin wagon New Member

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    hi......... im pretty new to mercedes but am lookin at a 190e bout an 88 model would any body be ble to give me some advice on common problems to look for on these and were i might be able to find some info on specs...

    thanx alot
     
  2. willydog

    willydog Senior Member

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    here's some American stuff I found, that might be useful, although some of the models may not be available in uk. hope you find it useful :)

    Willy
    190E -1.8

    =====================

    Frequently Asked Questions

    BUYERS GUIDE

    What is the difference in the models?

    190E 2.3 The 190E 2.3 is a 2.3 L I-4 M102, 2 valve per cylinder engine, putting out a meager 140 hp. The car is usually cheap and it was the only 190E to go through the entire 83 to 93 year range. Generally older 2.3s have less features. However 2.3s after 89 are right on par with the 2.6 in the features department. Bottom line is if the car is clean the paint is good and the car has been taken car of mechanically, go for it. For a daily driver Its a good car and is usually 20-30% cheaper than a 2.6. But don't expect the raging 140hp and 8 valves of blazing fury to get you merged on the freeway too quickly. If buying a 2.3 notable changes were in 89 when the car went to the 2 tone cladding giving it a more modern look. In my opinion it looks more modern. A Limited Edition and a sportline was offered with the 2.3 but was limited in production because most buyers opted for the 2.6. The 2.3 also had the option of a 5-speed manual and this was more common in 2.3s than it was in 2.6s

    For more info see model history

    190E 2.6 The 190E 2.6 is a 2.6 L I-6 M103, also 2 valves per cylinder. The engine puts out 160 hp which is not exactly going to warp your driveshaft ...ever. The 2.6 was first produced in 87 the model looked like the older 2.3s with a 6-cyl engine. In 89 MB switched to the tu-tone cladding body style. Generally the 2.6 came fully loaded with power seats, power/tilt sunroof The better (If you can call it that) Bose stereo system. Some came with leather interior which looks very nice. MB introduced 2 more editions of the 2.6 to cater to the younger sport oriented crowd. The sportline which was available with a 5-speed manual transmission as an option, Leather Seats standard a better performance oriented suspension package. Also Was the LE or Limited Edition. Very few of these LEs were made, LEs are just like sportlines but only came in black on black. The LE has black leather bucket power seats with red piping on the outsides also carbon fiber center console standard. The MY 92+ 2.6 is the best bang for your buck in my opinion. The 92+ models transmissions started in 1st gear improving 0-30 times but not shaving any time off the 0-60. 92-93 is when most sportlines and LEs were made. Over all the 2.6 is a better daily driving car. PROS of the 2.6 are Lower RPMs at speed on the freeway and is a good blend between decent gas mileage and performance.

    190D 2.2 The 2.2 is the smallest and most underpowered car in the line up. 0-60 figures are somewhere around 16 secs. The 2.2 is still a good car and still has all the features of a standard 190E. The 2.2L I-4 M602 diesel engine is extremely reliable and has few problems if maintained properly. 190Ds are fairly rare. The most common year is 87 to find these cars.

    190D 2.5 Basically the same car a bit faster a bit more torque and HP same M602 Diesel only a 2.5L I-5. Also extremely reliable and rare. The rarest of rare 190s is the 2.5 TD (turbo diesel) almost on par with the performance of the E 2.6. Only 700 of these were imported into the US. I have yet to see one in real life.

    190E 2.3-16 The 190E 2.3-16 is a 2.3 L I-4 M102, 4 valve per cylinder engine, putting out 170 hp. The car is the most performance oriented of the model range . The car has an M102 I-4 but has a 16 valve head designed by Cosworth engineering in England. Generally the availability of these cars is low seeing as how there are probably less than 1000 currently in existence in the U.S. 2.3-16s were imported in 86 and 87 with a few gray market 85s making it over from Europe. Bottom line is people selling these usually want too much money, but If your willing to spend the money this is the closest you get to a true Mercedes sports car. For a daily driver It has an awkward but silky smooth dog leg 5 speed manual, It also came with a Auto, but what a waste. The car accelerates quickly 0-60 in 7.3 or 7.7 secs. If buying a 2.3-16 look for a good deal, just because the car has 36,000 miles doesn't mean its a problem free car. A general price range is 5-7 grand. I wouldn't pay over 6 or 7 tops personally. I have seen some listed for $7k with a **** load of miles, don't let the price discourage you. Most people set the price way too high feeding you **** like its a rare AMG model (which is not true). NADA Blue Book value for an 87 16v is $4,730 bucks with 100k miles. People wanting $10-15k will never sale at that price. The 16v or cossie as it called in England is rare and overpriced, but if you find a good deal jump on it! It does give the performance minded driver a sense of satisfaction that no other Mercedes can give you.

    The 2.6 VS. 16V debate

    So you found an immaculate 2.6 5-speed and your wondering hmmmmmm this or a 16 valve?

    I have driven both. I find that they are on equal playing fields. It just comes down to which one looks better in your mind. The 2.6 5-speed came in all colors. The 16v came in 2 colors smoked sliver and black-blue metallic. The acceleration is about the same. The 16 v revs faster and has better throttle response, but the 2.6 has more torque and doesn't have to pull as hard to get to speed. The 16v has an odd dog leg 5-speed where 1st is bottom left and 5th is bottom right. The 2.6 has the standard 1st top left 5th top right shift pattern. 2.6s came with various color leather or MB TEX 16 v came with only in beautiful perforated black leather.



    My personal opinion is a 5 speed 2.6 can be made faster and can overall be more pleasurable. Contrary to popular belief the 5 speed 2.6 is much rarer than the 16V.



    What Should I look for when choosing any 190E?

    1. Look at everything close, don't just be in a haste to buy.

    2. Sleep on it, check out 190 REV and look at the rest of my page to see what you should look for. Ask one of the 190REV members if they have carfax and run the VIN. Lots of good info saved me from buying a 16v with odo fraud.

    3.Look at the trouble spots. Look for fluid and oil leaks. Wear shitty clothes and get down on the ground and LOOK!!!!

    a. Check the head area the best. Look for oil leaking below the exhaust manifold.

    b. Check the valve cover is there a ton of old crusty oil around it? Take the car to your house, but it up on jacks and look for oil leaks. Mercedes put a pan under there so If you don't see oil on the ground don't think its not leaking.

    c. Run the car for a while, 15 mins or so, observe if it starts getting hot. Then after you shut it off look for coolant leaks. If the car gets hot over 100* you should probably expect coolant system repairs.

    b. Check suspension, creaks, rattles, groans are not normal. look for obvious defects. Brakes are often neglected, check for pulling and fading. Look at the tires, funny wear patterns will tell you something is not right with the suspension.

    4. Check all the fluids, chances are if they didn't keep up on simple ****, how badly have they neglected the rest of the car?

    Check this before the car has been running.

    a. Engine Oil

    b. Brake Fluid

    c. Coolant Expansion tank, check for debris or something that looks like creamy peanut butter. If you see that run away!

    d. Check the belts, do they look good?

    e. Starting, Is it funny (ie..too many cranks, dying after starting, having to give it gas? If it seems funny somethings wrong.

    Check this while the engine is running

    a. Automatic transmission fluid. Observe level and color. Don't worry about the ATF that dripped on the headers it will smoke a lot but it has a high flash point and won't flame up or anything.

    b. Note gauges. Does the Idle deviate? Only exception is a cold start, 1000-1200 rpms is normal for a few minutes. You should slowly see it drop. Finally the normal idle is 650-750RPMS.

    c. Is the temperature gauge reading right, Is it jumping around? How bout the gas gauge.

    d. Oil pressure 1.5 bar at idle in DRIVE. 1.7 bar in PARK and 3 bar under acceleration. only exception again is cold start 2.5 to 3 bar is normal if engine is cold and need to warm up.

    e. Watch the engine temp while driving. 80 is normal and it is acceptable for the temp to reach 100* The line after 80, in stop and go traffic. Anything above that, go have it checked out.

    f. Run the A/C if it ups the engine temp above 100 something is wrong or you live in Phoenix. If the A/C doesn't work don't accept the "Oh it just needs to be recharged line" Bull ****. If its 100*F outside and the A/C isn't working then chances are its more than a simple recharge. Something is wrong or that person is lazy and hasn't driven the car in a while. Another indication to check the car carefully.

    After the engine has ran

    a. engine oil. Hot level should be a bit lower.

    b. look for coolant leaks, observer temp by feel. Listen for a boiling noise THAT IS BAD!!!!!

    Finally gut instinct. Is the seller trustworthy? Is the car what he says it is? Has he/she been straight forward with you? Are there documents for maintenance performed? Is the car clean?

    Don't go by price. You'll save a lot of money If you get a clean car that is maintained well for a higher price. Fading paint, ripped interior, things missing here and there, Some mechanical quirks will end up costing more in the end.

    Example

    You have the choice between a 93 2.6 with 125 k. The paint is a little faded on the trunk, roof, and hood. The interior has some tears the rear left window is INOP. The sunroof won't open, it has no stereo and you can see some clipped wire under the dash. It gets a little warm in traffic the A/C doesn't work, but he assures you it just needs recharged. The brakes pull a little to the left. but he only wants $2,800

    Then you find a 89 2.6 with 140k. The paint looks showroom with minor dings. The interior has been well taken care of. Everything works. Seller has incomplete maintenance records, but a few. It drives great. stays cool even in traffic. The A/C works good. Everything looks like its in its proper place. Now the seller wants $5500. Damn $5500 thats twice as much for an older car with more miles.

    Lets evaluate

    2,800 for the first car. Of course this is like a worst case scenario (but expect the worst)

    And this is Do It Yourself, imagine what a mechanic would charge

    OK Paint job @ MACCO $700.00

    or

    Good paint job @ Local Pros $3000.00

    Rear Window Regulator $65.00 USED what a PITA to install!

    New Sunroof Motor $388.00 what a PITA to install!

    New Brake pads and rotors $250.00

    USED seats from junk yard $ 200.00 EA

    USED dash from recycler $80.00

    New A/C Dryer / reciever $80 and some rings + a recharge for $80 and 30 for an R134A Kit.

    200.00 Labor to chase down cooling problems

    $150 more dollars to fix what's wrong

    I think you smell what I'm stepping in.

    Its your choice!

    BUYER BEWARE!!!!





    What are the pros and cons to owning a Mercedes-Benz 190E?

    I think it really depends on the model. Generally here are the pros and cons you should expect.



    Cons: WHAT TO LOOK FOR!

    Performance

    These cars are not fast 0-60 in 8.6 Seconds for the 2.6L I-6 and 9.3 sec for the 2.3L I-4 and 7.7sec for the 2.3-16 Valve. There are very few "bolt on" performance upgrades to make them fast. Mercedes has always made underpowered engines. The cars weigh a lot and Mercedes prefers luxury over sport, keep this in mind if your thinking of buying one. If your looking for a sports car you should probably look at a BMW or VW as even the 2.3-16 Is more luxury than sport.

    For more on this topic see my Performance section.

    Head Gasket

    For some reason or another these cars seem to have a flawed head gasket. Over time the head gasket gets brittle and starts to crack after about 60k miles. This should be the first question when buying! WHEN WAS THE HEAD GASKET DONE? DON'T TAKE A CHANCE. If it hasn't been done recently your good to go, but if not, either expect to replace as soon as you purchase the car or your going to have a $4000 nightmare on your hands. WHEN do head gaskets usually go? The unfortunate thing is there is really no telling. From the factory they seem to last until about 70k. So with that said, be weary of cars with 60k on the odometer. Just make sure the owner or dealer has record of the head gasket being replaced. If buying a 16 valve, know that the head gaskets on the Cosworth head are a bit more reliable. Results are inconclusive because only 2000 were ever brought into the US where as Mercedes imported 8,000 2.6s a year and about the same amount of 2.3 8 valves.

    For more on this topic visit my Repairs section

    Transmission

    Mercedes transmissions are not know for being smooth. The 722 Transmission was used on the entire model range from 81 to 95. The 722.4 is used by the 2.6 and 2.3 8 valve. This transmission has common problems like hard shifting, clunking when shifting, improper shifting inputs (hanging, slipping). These transmissions will NEED routine maintenance. In my opinion these transmissions are weak. If you give it hell constantly expect some bills down the line. Now I don't mean the occasional Italian tune-up will ruin the transmission. Constant race car type driving will mess it up quick! Burnouts, donuts, figure-8s DON'T DO THEM. If you want to drive like a jack ass, by all means **** up a BMW. These 722.4 transmissions will need regular fluid changes, I would suggest once a year. When doing a fluid change be sure to replace the pan gasket and Transmission filter. Make sure to check for leaks! These trannys have a ton of gaskets on them that if broken can spill out all of your tranny fluid. the most notorious gasket is the pan gasket followed by the governor housing O-ring. Check for ATF fluid level and check for ATF on the bottom of the car, a tell tale sign something could be horribly wrong.

    For more on this topic visit my Repairs section



    Pros:

    Timeless Styling ability to modify

    These cars are good looking, they are small so you can either go for a sporty look or because its still a Mercedes-Benz the classy luxury look. Unlike performance upgrades there are tons of aftermarket aesthetics to keep your W201 looking modern. Most any Mercedes wheel will fit. As long as the wheels dimensions do not exceed 17X8 and the offset is 35mm it will fit on a stock setup 190E. With 17X8 the largest tire anyone recommends is a 215/40ZR17.

    Euro headlights can improve the look of any Mercedes. Though they are expensive they do offer better lighting and a more modern look.

    Body kits are readily available through companies like Reiger, Wald and Erebuni. Rieger, in my opinion offers the best selection.

    Ride height adjustment will give the car a more sporty and menacing stance. I will mention that a special tool is required to do the job.

    Great ride and suspension

    When everything is proper, the suspension rides like a dream, corners great and gives you an overall sense of satisfaction that no car other than a Mercedes can offer. The car sprints on the highway. Even at 3000 RPMS the road just disappears smoothly beneath you with minimal outside noise. The cruise control is excellent and very in-tune with the car. The seats offer great support and I never feel sore or stiff after a 6 hour trip. The power seats are reliable and are very adjustable to insure an individuals level of comfort is attained.

    Good Ergonomics

    The car is small so ergonomics isn't a big issue. In my opinion the buttons and controls are arranged in a way that benefits the driver greatly. The 190 still follows the traditional Mercedes dash layout Window controls by the gear shift, large easy to feel climate controls. Easy to use steering wheel column controls for lights, wipers and cruise control.

    The Mercedes-Benz aura

    Although this car is considered a baby Benz it is truly a Benz none the less. It still carries all the features you come to expect from a Mercedes. Quality and Safety are every bit as prevalent in a 190E as they are in a 560SEL or S500. You still get to look out at your shiny chrome hood star. People usually respect the car even if its not there favorite type of car. Or they will comment on it being clean or generally a nice little car.





    Bottom line

    If you want a sports car, don't buy a 190E they just aren't sports cars. But....If you want a smooth luxury car for a good price the 190E should be at the top of your list.
     
  3. mike65

    mike65 Senior Member

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    Well all the usual things apply like check if its got any (good) service history.

    Some items on a Merc 190 are very expensive to replace I'm thinking of the timing chain for example...At some point the single chain design was replaced by a dulpex chain. Which is why I'd go for a late 190e (1990 onwards) the double chain which should last as long as the car with only the tensioner requiring renewal.

    The Heater maxtrix is a bastard to replace as it needs the whole dashboard and heater unit to be removed which is a long full day.

    Water pumps tend to go - they get very loud as the bearing wear. Easy enough to fix and not very expensive either. The rear electric windows can be bothersome due to wiring getting worn at the b-pillar, but again not a disaster. Body rot is nearly unheard of unless its been crashed and not repaired well. Buy a manual, a high milage auto box will almost certainly be shot unless already replaced.

    Read these owner reviews for a flavour-
    http://www.carsurvey.org/model_Mercedes-Benz_190.html

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/car_reviews/review.aspx?range_id=451
    http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/user_reviews/readReviews.aspx?model_id=519

    A fans site - http://www.geocities.com/shvoldum/main.html

    For non dealer prices check www.eurocarparts.com and www.gsfcarparts.com

    Hope that helps! :)

    Mike.
     
  4. OP
    flaggin wagon

    flaggin wagon New Member

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    thanx that really helps alot
     
  5. RA

    RA New Member

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    Willydog!!!!!!!!!!!!

    were did you find this article? What site?

    :wink:
     
  6. landrover

    landrover Banned

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    Spelling correction.....[able.] [about] and the specs can be found in its a [bit of a giggle] [well they are sunglasses]`Bit of a giggle!: Joined: 25 Aug 2004
    Posts: 2
     
  7. jezyg

    jezyg New Member

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    You point is.....Dr Landrover sadly we have not all reached your greatness, in the ability to spell and use English in such a colourful manner as your great self.
     
  8. 190

    190 Banned

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    Where do you get a 2.2 diesel in the190 as far as i am aware they are 2.0D and 2.5D From 1984 to 1993.
     
  9. 190

    190 Banned

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    Spare parts

    Hope i dont offend you but [I don't agree] (edit by Roger) cost of parts for 190 2.0 is eg timing chain about 1 hr to replace only need to remove rocker cover and chain tensioner cost of part £12.50 for chain, £14 for tensioner Water pump is easy to fit about 30 mins cost £35 I agree with you on the auto box but if regularly serviced should be good for 150,000 to 200,000 miles but repairs are expensive. As for the heater matrix i have never done one but I have taken out a dashboard it is very easy to remove and refit. So dont be put off buying one as they are very reliable cars
     
  10. mike65

    mike65 Senior Member

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    I was'nt trying to put anyone off! :) The dashboard removal is'nt difficult just l-o-n-g winded hense expensive if you ain't doing it yourself. The tensioner is easy, did that myself last week - in about 30 mins as you say.

    Mike.

    ps Love to know which swear word Roger edited!
     
  11. flyingtech55

    flyingtech55 Senior Member

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    Hi flaggin wagon

    When I was looking for a decent 190 I found that noisey differentials are a common fault on them. I found a couple of otherwise quite nice 190s but the diffs. grumbled, one really howled. Asking around I found that the diffs. are a common failing. Although renewing them isn't difficult in theory, the problem is that because all these cars are at least ten years old now, the various nuts, bolts and fasteners in general are pretty corroded and can put up quite a fight when you try to undo them. This adds time, difficulty and expense to the operation. Haven't had to do it myself (thank goodness) but friends in the trade obviously have and that's what they tell me. If you do find a good one make sure you change the diff. oil annually to preserve the diff.

    Good luck with your search, there seem to be plenty about to choose from at the moment.

    Gliderman
     
  12. landover

    landover Banned

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    buy

    Go for it mate. buy one you wont be disapointed. Just cope with any problems when they arrive..If you here too much about any car it will put you off..good luck.[landover]
     
  13. flyingtech55

    flyingtech55 Senior Member

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    The chap asked for pointers I was attempting to help him to avoid the EKAT factor. That's one of the purposes of this forum.
     
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