ABC (again) and STAR MOTOR SERVICE

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
On Sunday evening my car displayed, in white, ABC visit workshop

On Monday morning on start up the car displayed, ABC drive carefully (superfluous advise as I always drive carefully ***!!!???)

Some ABC fluid on my garage floor but on checking there was enough fluid in the reservoir (I hoped) for me to drive the thirty miles to Star Motor Service; which I did without incident albeit with the bouncy castle symptom.

The car is 13.5 years old and has covered 135k miles. ABC pumps have possibly got an average life expectancy of 60k-80k miles; pulsation dampers and accumulators a possible life expectancy of circa 10 years.

My car had a replacement pulsation damper (used because there happened to be one in the workshop) when it was twelve years old so the first job was to replace the used pulsation damper with a new pulsation damper. If the pulsation damper has worn out (failed) then it is highly probable that the two (front and rear axle) accumulators are also near the end of their serviceable life so these were replaced with new ones as a piece of preventative maintenance and of course to eliminate the accumulators as being the culprit of the ABC fault.

I will not bore you with how the diagnostics went from this point onwards, partly because I am not entirely clear myself but mostly because you would likely lose the will to live if I record all the diagnostic procedures (If you really need to know ask Ian).

In summary the pump would hold pressure at a steady 185 bar once “primed” by revving the car but not from cold on tick over and/or would not recover/build pressure from low pressure so the conclusion was that the suction valve was fine but the pump had failed. The suction valve is not available as a separate item from the pump…….happily I still had the car’s original pump c/w suction valve stowed away in my garage from when it was replaced (at 60k miles when the car was 7 years old) because the suction valve part had failed.

So the original pump part from my garage (60k miles old) was married to the suction valve part just taken off the car (75k miles old) and then fitted to the car…….sound diagnosis…….because all is well with my car for the time being at least.

The future life of this combination is of course unknown other than it is certain to be less than a whole new replacement combination at circa £600. If I get a couple of years then a good result…….if I only get a couple of months then not so good.

A big thank you to Ian and his team for working through this one.......well done chaps.

Mic
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
The flow restrictor valve IS available if you know where to look. Germany only, £130 or €150. And yes they do go. That was one of the problems I had originally.

Mic, I know you know but it's worth repeating. Flush the fluid and replace the filter every 2 years or 20k. That will really prolong the life of all the seals and massively reduce gunking up in the struts & valves. The other thing is to drive the car, at least 5-10 miles a week but preferably more. Leaving then to sit still allows any sediment in the fluid to gunk up and start congealing. Keep things flowing regularly and that problem is avoided.
 

star

Forum Supporter
Authorised Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
6,209
Reaction score
1,874
Location
Reading
Your Mercedes
Smart + others :)
Not sure restrictor valves were available 6yrs ago??
 
OP
Mic

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #4
The flow restrictor valve IS available if you know where to look. Germany only, £130 or €150. And yes they do go. That was one of the problems I had originally.

Mic, I know you know but it's worth repeating. Flush the fluid and replace the filter every 2 years or 20k. That will really prolong the life of all the seals and massively reduce gunking up in the struts & valves. The other thing is to drive the car, at least 5-10 miles a week but preferably more. Leaving then to sit still allows any sediment in the fluid to gunk up and start congealing. Keep things flowing regularly and that problem is avoided.

My car is, for all practical purposes, a daily driver so no worries about usage for my car but I take the point......one with which I agree......ABC cars more than most need to be used.

I am not convinced about the 2 years/20k miles frequency of replacing the fluid and filter. I have concluded that it is reasonable to adopt a similar regime to that of brake fluid.......4 years/40k miles. I think this will help with seals, valves and of course the struts. (I am still on the original valve blocks and struts.......my ABC fluid was flushed through and replaced in June of last year).

I suspect, however, that the pump and suction valve have a finite life that is difficult to influence because they are being required to work at such very high pressures.

Clean fluids and filters can never be detrimental to the life of any system.

Mic
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
My car is, for all practical purposes, a daily driver so no worries about usage for my car but I take the point......one with which I agree......ABC cars more than most need to be used.

I am not convinced about the 2 years/20k miles frequency of replacing the fluid and filter. I have concluded that it is reasonable to adopt a similar regime to that of brake fluid.......4 years/40k miles. I think this will help with seals, valves and of course the struts. (I am still on the original valve blocks and struts.......my ABC fluid was flushed through and replaced in June of last year).

I suspect, however, that the pump and suction valve have a finite life that is difficult to influence because they are being required to work at such very high pressures.

Clean fluids and filters can never be detrimental to the life of any system.

Mic

That 2 year figure is what Pentosin themselves recommend in the US. The refinery has a 215 demonstrator car that (certainly in 2015) was on its original struts, valve blocks and pump following the recommended service schedule.

For £75 a year saving (~£600 over 4 years vs. ~£300) is it worth risking a &600 pump or £1k strut? To me them maths don't add up.

The pump and valve blocks have a finite life of course. They contain wear components, most notably the o ring seals. Now the life of an o ring is quite predictable as 1/ r^2 versus time in service in unclean fluid. That is, the longer it operates in that fluid the greater the rate of increase of deterioration of sealing ability. The particulates in the fluid shred the sealing face more and more until it's ragged.

So, think about a 1/r^2 curve and look at the inflexion point. For the o rings the car was designed with its break in seal lifetime at around 2.5 years. After that, the seals will deteriorate faster & faster over time. So Pentosin put a service schedule in just before the life break on the chart and hey presto it works. The o rings I've sourced for my valves (Pullman and Noel both have these) have a life break of around 4 years as they're a much superior abrasion resistant material. But I'll still stick to the 2 years as that works for the pump.
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
Not sure restrictor valves were available 6yrs ago??

Ah, don't know about 6 years ago Ian. I found a place in Chermany selling reconditioned ones last year when I was trying to recondition my own pump. They didn't have many available, they were all reconditioned but definitely a stock item.
 
OP
Mic

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #7
That 2 year figure is what Pentosin themselves recommend in the US. The refinery has a 215 demonstrator car that (certainly in 2015) was on its original struts, valve blocks and pump following the recommended service schedule.

For £75 a year saving (~£600 over 4 years vs. ~£300) is it worth risking a &600 pump or £1k strut? To me them maths don't add up.

The pump and valve blocks have a finite life of course. They contain wear components, most notably the o ring seals. Now the life of an o ring is quite predictable as 1/ r^2 versus time in service in unclean fluid. That is, the longer it operates in that fluid the greater the rate of increase of deterioration of sealing ability. The particulates in the fluid shred the sealing face more and more until it's ragged.

So, think about a 1/r^2 curve and look at the inflexion point. For the o rings the car was designed with its break in seal lifetime at around 2.5 years. After that, the seals will deteriorate faster & faster over time. So Pentosin put a service schedule in just before the life break on the chart and hey presto it works. The o rings I've sourced for my valves (Pullman and Noel both have these) have a life break of around 4 years as they're a much superior abrasion resistant material. But I'll still stick to the 2 years as that works for the pump.

I have read their stuff and it is not ambiguous.......maybe they are right but of course it only proves their chosen regime.......it does not disprove an alternative.
We all make judgements based on all the available information available........there is now a lot "out there".

Ultimately this is no longer a big financial issue so far as the pump alone is concerned balanced against the cost of a preventative maintenance regime of 2 years/20k miles which I have concluded is too frequent to be commercially justified.

I may be wrong but no-one will ever know for certain.

Mic
 

flowrider

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,650
Reaction score
1,611
Your Mercedes
SL500 (R230)
Pentosin want to sell more hydraulic fluid so recommend a 2yr replacement regime rather than a 4 yr regime and only sell half the fluid. Having said that changing the fluid every 2 yrs wont do any harm.
 
OP
Mic

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #9
What do MB recommend for new cars with ABC?

MB will be fully aware of all the various "recommendations" from Pentosin and others and will have a direct line of communication with Pentosin.

This is a system that has been in production for almost a couple of decades giving MB and Pentosin plenty of opportunity to fully appraise the life expectancy of the various components allowing MB to incorporate a service recommendation into their service schedule.

I do not know what MB recommend.......anyone?

Mic
 

John Laidlaw

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
26,373
Reaction score
9,163
Location
Wirral
Your Mercedes
Land Rover Discovery 4
MB didnt have any service schedule for fluid change on ABC as far as I know, also as far as I know ABC is now an option on the 231 only- MB probably hope non one ticks that box...:D
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
What do MB recommend for new cars with ABC?

MB will be fully aware of all the various "recommendations" from Pentosin and others and will have a direct line of communication with Pentosin.

This is a system that has been in production for almost a couple of decades giving MB and Pentosin plenty of opportunity to fully appraise the life expectancy of the various components allowing MB to incorporate a service recommendation into their service schedule.

I do not know what MB recommend.......anyone?

Mic

MB USA has ABC on a 20k schedule. I just looked. That's interesting...
 
OP
Mic

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #13
MB USA has ABC on a 20k schedule. I just looked. That's interesting...

Craig, I can only find "check level and top up as necessary" at any mileage.

Admittedly MY13.

Where did you find the change of scheduling please?

Mic
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
OP
Mic

Mic

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
130
Age
74
Location
Oxfordshire
Website
www.bennettgibbons.co.uk
Your Mercedes
MB SL500(2003), MB SLK320(2001), Volvo V70 XC AWD(2001)
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #15

That is where I had been looking but that comes under the sub-heading:

"Check the following fluid levels; correct if necessary" from page 17 and so far as I can tell it is the same for for all service mileages/time intervals.

My interpretation of all this is that MB have not introduced scheduled servicing for the ABC system.

That does not make it best practise because informed opinion deviates from MB service scheduling not only for ABC but also ATF

This is worth a read:

http://mercedes-abc-drive-carefully...08/overview-abc-system-isthe-key-part-of.html

Mic
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
That is where I had been looking but that comes under the sub-heading:

"Check the following fluid levels; correct if necessary" from page 17 and so far as I can tell it is the same for for all service mileages/time intervals.

My interpretation of all this is that MB have not introduced scheduled servicing for the ABC system.

That does not make it best practise because informed opinion deviates from MB service scheduling not only for ABC but also ATF

This is worth a read:

http://mercedes-abc-drive-carefully...08/overview-abc-system-isthe-key-part-of.html

Mic

That link is where I started my journey with ABC Mic!
 

m2287

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
253
Reaction score
23
Location
Cambridge
Your Mercedes
Bentley Continental GT - S55K AMG - RR vogue - Mazda6 estate
Pumps can be rebuilt for less than £100
 

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
Pumps can be rebuilt for less than £100

They can but that requires a possible Heat treatment of the pulley. Knowing my luck I'd harden it to fracture point!!!
 

Submariner1

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2016
Messages
4,689
Reaction score
787
Location
Windsor Berkshire
Your Mercedes
CL500 2009 5.5
MB USA has ABC on a 20k schedule. I just looked. That's interesting...

I was told that there was a note on WIS some time ago to change every 20,000 or 22,000 and then it just dissapeared but it never ade it to the official service schedules.?

Interesting MB US has it at 20,000 miles ... probably more worried about costly Class action lawsuits hmmm :)

I suspect mine had been changed, as at 40,000 when I had my system flushed and a new filter it was very clear light green and clean. But there were a few tiny black particles in it.
Did I waste my money ... definitely no, bet those particles deliver a punch when pushed around at 190 bar.
Plus just peace of mind.
It would be lovely if she made 60,000 miles without another strut or pump.
Fingers crossed the flush and filter will help.

I wonder if mine an 09, had the smaller 3 micron filter from new. Or was it still the 10 micron filter in 2009?
That might help the pump, if I was lucky enough to have the smaller filter from new.

As for the strut hmmm imo its a crap piece of engineering design, I lost one at 1,400 miles and another at 14,000 miles ... all sorted under warranty, but give me a break!
I go over speed humps at 10-12mph. Never go up kerbs etc.
And now lost one at 40,000 miles well it leaked if suspended on a ramp, but did not leak in normal use. But it was still technically broken.

I dont think the new S Coupe has ABC?
 


GAD was founded in 2009 where we developed bespoke ECU Remapping software for motorsport clients, moving forward, we have extended to road vehicles for both performance and economy,
contact GAD Tuninghttp://www.GADTuning.co.ukto discuss your requirements.
Top Bottom