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anti diesel idea not working.....

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by turbopete, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    It's not so much the annual VED but the fuel tax. If everyone switched to electric the government tax take would be hugely reduced. They won't be happy with that so will need to find a way to tac electric vehicles to replace the lost revenue. To tax the bulk electric supply would be political suicide as you would be taxed on your domestic electricity whether you had a car or not and whether you used it 5 miles a year or 50k miles.

    One solution is toll roads, but that would mean people who only ever drive in town would pay nothing (though so called congestion charges avoid that anomaly).
    It would lead to increased usage of non-toll roads where parallel routes exist where people avoid the toll roads to avoid the tax.

    HGVs are taxed currently by mileage so extending that would be one solution.
    In NZ in the 90s they taxed diesel cars (for private use) by the mile (which actually showed up another issue in that the more mpg your car did the more tax per litre you paid).
    The technology exists to make this quite easy to implement. GPS coupled to roadside transducers to track vehicles would be one solution but the brings up privacy issues where every person could be tracked anywhere in the country (at least with mobiles you can turn them off or go to flight mode if you don't want to be 'tracked').
    Another option would be metering at the vehicle where the car tracks how much electricity it's used and the individual is billed on that.
     
  2. OP
    turbopete

    turbopete Senior Member

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    ive never heard of HGVs being taxed by the mile. I also think that, like excess mileage charges on lease cars, it would lead to an increase in 'clocking' before MOTs etc. (if that's how it was decided to calculate the tax).

    I think they will probably average out the fuel tax paid, and add it to the current VED, at least as a short term measure, OR they will install a separate supply/meter for the charger and you would be taxed accordingly on that.
     
  3. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Sorry - missed out the "in some countries" - NZ being one I believe.

    It would be better to meter electricity at the vehicle as if it was at the supply it could lead to electricity theft by people plugging into other people's supply (at least that way the thief would still pay the tax even if they stole the electricity).
     
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  4. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    Yes. Very sure.
     
  5. OP
    turbopete

    turbopete Senior Member

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    so these EVs obviously aren't theyre made out to be then. if from cradle to grave a Tesla is similar on overall emissions to a 7 series. I'm not entirely sure how you came to the fact that the figures are 'cherry picked' though, and I admit I don't have figures available BUT given that 70% of the emissions from the 7 series come from driving it, that means that only 30% come from building and recycling it (and any repairs it may need) now, maybe I'm over simplifying things but that means that theres an awful lot of pollution (if IC engines are as bad as theyre being made out to be) being created JUST to produce these EVs (and any spares/replacement batteries etc) which is currently being kept quiet. I'm thinking the government will put a purchase tax on EVs once theyre mainstream/all that's available, again billed as a 'green tax' as MAKING the cars will be so bad for causing pollution! ive said it before, theyre a great theory BUT with current technology etc I'm not sure EVs are the answer.
     
  6. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    I didn’t say that. I said that the total lifetime emissions of an EV are similar to an IC car only if the manufacturing costs of the IC car are ignored. If the comparison is true apples to apples, then what we see is the 70% of emissions that represent the car’s driving lifetime is reduced by between 60-90% for the EV. That is, EVs over their lifetime produce between 42-63% fewer emissions than an equivalent IC car.
     
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  7. oigle

    oigle Senior Member

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    Road tax is a bit different to the tax imposed on every litre of fuel bought for on road use. Think about the fuel price for agricultural purposes - they don't pay the tax. Gov't reaps huge income from every litre of fuel sold through servos etc.
     
  8. rorywquin

    rorywquin Senior Member

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    This has always been my question - I believe that taxes, in one form or another make, up about 80% of the fuel price ----where would the government get that money from if we all went electric......I can assure you it will not be the big corporations (they have the money to fight the government) it would be us...the man in the street....
     
  9. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    Something like £40m per day at current rates.
     
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  10. flowrider99

    flowrider99 Senior Member

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    More than 65% of the cost of a litre of fuel goes to the government. We even pay VAT on the fuel duty, we are taxed on the tax!
     
  11. Flyinspanner

    Flyinspanner Senior Member

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    What about the environmental damage caused by mining for batteries component materials? As demand for batteries increases, so will the damage.

    I don’t have any answers as it’s not my field of knowledge, but are EVs much better/worse than hydrogen cell vehicles? It seemed they were ‘the future’ but seem to have fallen out of favour. Why?
     
  12. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    The issues with Hydrogen are energy density (how much is required), storage (hydrogen leeches through steel containers and is difficult to store safely) and sourcing. It's the most common element in the Universe but is also one of the most reactive and will readily form compounds with just about anything else. To split hydrogen from water will require lots of electricity and is less efficient than using electricity on its own as each conversion introduces losses.
    It's also difficult to handle safely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  13. oigle

    oigle Senior Member

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    Lack of a suitable method of storing hydrogen and no resupply infrastructure. Hydrogen in liquid form has to be contained under enormous pressure which is impractical and dangerous. Certainly a great fuel if these obstacles can be overcome. Fuel cells similarly.
    Ian.
     
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  14. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    The trouble right now is cost. Fuel cells are at least an order of magnitude more expensive than batteries.
     
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  15. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    There are a number of research projects looking at mass market auto OEM fuel cells now. As for straight H or H2, forget it. The cost to pass crash tests would be so prohibitive as to cause mass deaths due to hysteria- related heart attacks in the accounting sections at Ford and Chrysler...
     
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  16. Flyinspanner

    Flyinspanner Senior Member

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  17. Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    This BBC piece on diesels v petrol makes interesting reading its been on before but its relevant to this,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/how_toxic_is_your_car_exhaust you have to go at least 3/4 way through but

    older petrol worse than diesel,

    2009 car emits less NOx than most new diesels they've tested in the past three years?
    Qashqai N-Connecta DCI CVT (1598cc) produces 1.46g of NOx per kilometre. That is more than 18 times Europe's 0.08g/km limit.
    and twice the test 2009 skoda figures.
     
  18. Paul Goff

    Paul Goff Senior Member

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    Any doubts about supply infrastructure ability to service new fuel sources are a red herring! 120 years ago there was very little infrastructure to deliver private use fossil fuel that didn't involve sacks and a horse! And things were much the same with electricity. The only real land transport system was coal and water powered railways, and they didn't exist either 100 years before that.

    Long term these things will evolve, driven by demand and the desire to make a profit.
     
  19. Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    Apparently finding electric points, there not working, already occupied and high costs, are problems for electric car users.
    In the future the government has committed us to some very expensive nuclear fuel so unless you can find many square meters of solar panels, wind turbines etc for yourself electric cars will be very expensive to run.
    Maybe some of these fast charge, higher capacity technologies will come on the market pretty soon at the higher end of the market but for Mr & Mrs jo average its fossil fuels for a few years yet.
     
  20. geraldrobins

    geraldrobins Senior Member

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    How about making cars with easily and quickly replacement batteries that fit all cars. The idea being to pull into a fuel station and swap your nearly expired battery for a fully charged one without having to wait for a charge. It must be possible. A credit could be given for the amount of energy remaining in your replaced battery. Just a thought!!
     

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