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anti diesel idea not working.....

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by turbopete, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. bembo449

    bembo449 Senior Member

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    these batteries are built into the floor area on most cars of this type , so building a generic battery car wouldn't be an option I don't feel , its certainly possible though
     
  2. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    The issue is the batteries themselves have a lifetime. How do you take into account the difference in charge capacity of a new battery vs an end of life one?
     
  3. geraldrobins

    geraldrobins Senior Member

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    Its just an alternative idea. Surely the charge capacity can be measured? And batteries over a certain age could be recycled.
     
  4. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    It would also require batteries to be leased. I wouldn't be happy buying a new battery then having it swapped for one of unknown age/condition at the next top up.
     
  5. oigle

    oigle Senior Member

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    Not so easy. Batteries for electric cars weigh heaps. Not like a normal battery - they are heavy enough. Battery tech will have to improve a lot to make that feasible.

    Ian.
     
  6. geraldrobins

    geraldrobins Senior Member

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    Battery technology will need to move on anyway. but we have to look at all options surely.
     
  7. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    The easiest route is to improve charging times. That will require changes in battery tech and charger technology but it's already happening.
     
  8. 3146bj

    3146bj Senior Member

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    A couple of points re infrastructure to supply hydrogen as a fuel:

    1. The risk of fire when transporting and storing hydrogen is many orders of magnitude higher than transporting and storing petrol as the flammable range of hydrogen is between 1% and 94% of hydrogen by volume in air compared with between 2% and 8% by vapour volume in air for petrol (n.b. these are rounded numbers and can vary slightly).
    2. A liquid petrol leak is usually visible and can be smelled while hydrogen is an invisible, odourless gas, so a hydrogen leak may not be as easily detected as a petrol leak.
    3. As a leak may not be detected as early, and because of its wider flammable range, the area within which ignition may occur is much larger than with petrol.

    These points can all be dealt with at the design phase, but will result in higher transport and storage costs.

    At a different point in the supply chain, hydrogen will probably be produced by electrolysis of water, imposing a huge load on an electricity infrastructure which is already struggling to cope, so upgrading will be necessary at further massive cost, as well as consequent increase in generation requirements.

    So the apparent easy option of using hydrogen powered vehicles carries many unforeseen consequences and costs, before it can be considered anywhere near viable.
     
  9. oigle

    oigle Senior Member

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    And longevity of battery too if they want folks to buy them.
     
  10. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Or drop the cost down to a level where its 'acceptable'.
     
  11. C350Carl

    C350Carl Senior Member

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    On the contrary, it would be very very easy. They can either get it direct from the car if it is "connected to the tinterwebz" or they do it when it goes in for any yearly maintenance/MOT.
     
  12. C350Carl

    C350Carl Senior Member

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    The way forwards is allegedly Solid State Batteries. These can do over 500 miles on a single charge and recharge in 1 minute! (although i do wonder how thick the cable will be to provide 500miles of juice in 1 minute!)

    http://www.thedrive.com/tech/16037/...ad-to-500-mile-ev-range-1-minute-charge-times.

    As for swapping the battery. Tesla demonstrated that they can do it on the model S in 3 mins. But I think they abandoned the idea. Far more beneficial to charge (no pun intended) a customer circa £15k for a new battery after 8yrs.

    Speaking of which this is what currently puts me off buying the likes of a Tesla. I would happily have a used approved one but i wouldn't want to be lumbered with that bill at the 8yr point!
     
  13. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

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    I’ve been in the ‘older’ Tesla (taxi in Amsterdam) couple of times and it was pretty horrible inside/utilitarian seating etc. Switch gear was good (I’m biased), but everything else just cheap plasticky 90’s Nissan/Datsun feel.
    New ones are much nicer.
    I’m sticking with rocket juice as long as I can....
     
  14. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    What, you run your car on kerosene? ;)
     
  15. colin ling

    colin ling Senior Member

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    Why not produce the Hydrogen on site ?
    Solar panels could be used to produce the electricity and converted to Hydrogen it can be stored and then used easily. An English company ITM Power appear to make the equipment capable of the conversion. This idea is more appealing to me than driving round with half a ton of batteries. Electricity from the grid could be the backup
     
  16. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

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    Didn’t you know? Blend of that and Glenlivet 18YO....:p
     
    davemercedes and Craiglxviii like this.
  17. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    The energy density of Hydrogen is its biggest problem.
    Hydrogen compressed to 700bar has an energy density of 9.17MJ/Litre
    By comparison...
    Methane: 22.2 MJ/L (also compressed to liquid form)
    LPG: 26 MJ/L
    Petrol: 34.2MJ/L
    Diesel: 35.8MJ/L
    Paraffin (Kerosene): 37.4 MJ/L
    Coal: ~38MJ/L
    Uranium: 1,539,842,000MJ/L (in fission reactors).

    Li-ION batteries (currently): <2.63MJ/L (but these are relatively easily integrated into the vehicle structure).

    To put this into perspective... You would need 4 times as much Hydrogen as Diesel to cover the same distance so to get sufficient range to be usable you would 4 times the fuel capacity (and thats before you start factoring in the size and weight of the storage vessel vessel capable of containing the fuel safely at 700bar!
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  18. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    I would be interested in seeing the cost for the pressure vessel needed for that H at 700bar, that will remain stable during the crash tests!!!
     
  19. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    The key thing I’m taking away though is that Alastair evidently wants a coal- powered car ;)
     
  20. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Uranium please..... ;)
    Would make 1000hp and 20,000 mile range a breeze :) (Just need to shrink the reactor!)
     

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