Brexit

[Frontstep]

You do that so well one could think it were your natural level.

Its way above my normal level, the dry weather has lowered the pond water levels.

 

[PovertySpec]

The routers article is factual and current

Nah, it's just one person's opinion

 

[Frosty149]

With the recent events and 'new confusion' within govt
What are the thoughts on Brexit:

Hard (clean)?
Soft?

 

[BeeJay]

Our European partners now feel stronger about remaining in. Perhaps it is because anyone daring to leave is clearly going to be punished.

See: https://goo.gl/9bH961

 

[geraldrobins]

I dont think they want to punish us but clearly they will favour the EU first in any negotiations.

 

[davemercedes]

I dont think they want to punish us but clearly they will favour the EU first in any negotiations.

In the beginning, most of the EU were disappointed about the Brexit result and (especially Merkel) only wanted to ensure that UK did not benefit (within the EU - i.e.: have a better deal outside membership) by leaving. But IMO Mayhem's aggressive manner has increased the EU officials desire to hurt UK and meanwhile she seems to have had a "job-death-wish".

Even on the day when she was reportedly making "contrite apologies" to the 1922 committee - look at what happened:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ed-hardline-brexit-minister-department-clear/ :-

Summary: Chief EU Negotiator David Davis lost two of his ministers and only found out about the one who had been sacked (David Jones) when he phoned him! Admittedly Jones was the "hard line Anti-EU minister" so it doesn't bother me, but treating her EU Team Leader like this is weird to say the least - you can't tie your team captain's legs together and expect to him run on the field!

In answer to Frosty149's question, I think common sense just might have started to prevail because there is more pressure on Mayhem from within - thank goodness, to try and achieve the "soft" result. IMO it was always ludicrous to consider any other as a "result" and not a failure.

In the meantime we have the Queen's Speech to worry about and we'll soon find out what's been left in from her more or less "disgraced" manifesto - remember while admitting a U-turn on her dementia tax (did she though?) she defiantly told Andrew Marr "nothing has changed!"

 

[davemercedes]

According to this report (if the headline true), May's first point of principle has gone already: -

UK to agree Brexit divorce bill before trade talks - EU sources
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

 

[davidsl500]

According to this report (if the headline true), May's first point of principle has gone already: -

UK to agree Brexit divorce bill before trade talks - EU sources
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

The EU's stance has always been to negotiate the withdrawal costs etc., first and the Brexit teams stance has always been to have parallel talks on withdrawal and future trading so that's old news. We could just refuse to negotiate unless it is done in parallel and we know where that will end.. Sorting out the EU Citizens over here and the UK people abroad should be priority anyway - we wanted to get that sorted soon after the referendum - it's the EU that refused to discuss it until article 50 was deployed.

The EU may want to see what they can stiff us for before negotiating the trade deal. The more they extract then maybe the more favourable the trade deal, who knows. They may just want to try and stiff us every way possible of course.

The EU think they are being cleaver but one thing is for certain - until its all agreed nothing is agreed.If the EU want to have their way over the agenda they have to be aware that everything discussed before the trade talks is pointless since we can veto the whole deal if the trade talks are not to our liking. That's why it makes more sense to discuss the points in parallel. It's give and take and a reasonable deal for all that is required..

 

[davemercedes]

The EU's stance has always been to negotiate the withdrawal costs etc., first and the Brexit teams stance has always been to have parallel talks on withdrawal and future trading so that's old news. We could just refuse to negotiate unless it is done in parallel and we know where that will end.. Sorting out the EU Citizens over here and the UK people abroad should be priority anyway - we wanted to get that sorted soon after the referendum - it's the EU that refused to discuss it until article 50 was deployed.

The EU may want to see what they can stiff us for before negotiating the trade deal. The more they extract then maybe the more favourable the trade deal, who knows. They may just want to try and stiff us every way possible of course.

The EU think they are being cleaver but one thing is for certain - until its all agreed nothing is agreed.If the EU want to have their way over the agenda they have to be aware that everything discussed before the trade talks is pointless since we can veto the whole deal if the trade talks are not to our liking. That's why it makes more sense to discuss the points in parallel. It's give and take and a reasonable deal for all that is required..

I don't fully agree with you - the first strategy of any meeting is setting out to dictate how it is run so of course we wanted it be run "our way". But Mayhem with her arrogance and "no deal is better", crap put their backs up and there was no way that UK would ever win that first hurdle.

We are facing reps for 27 other countries a few of which want to see UK hurt for having the temerity to leave etc. I've said all along (regardless of the logic of them wanting to keep their sales to UK etc): we will get what we are given - full stop. And I tell you now that what we are given will be held up as a wonderful political achievement - well, won't it?.

 

[Frosty149]

Genuine question: what is the obstacle to a cross-party negotiation team?

It strikes me there are some who can bring skills/presence to the table who will otherwise be excluded.
The referendum was less partisan?

Perhaps there is a good reason - I can't think of it...

 

[Frosty149]

I see this morning, the Tories are to call a two year parliament- no queens speech 2018, to allow for the magnitude of legislation generated by Brexit. Labour will doubtless suggest, this is to facilitate law by stealth, or to diminish the process....

 

[geraldrobins]

I don't fully agree with you - the first strategy of any meeting is setting out to dictate how it is run so of course we wanted it be run "our way". But Mayhem with her arrogance and "no deal is better", crap put their backs up and there was no way that UK would ever win that first hurdle.

We are facing reps for 27 other countries a few of which want to see UK hurt for having the temerity to leave etc. I've said all along (regardless of the logic of them wanting to keep their sales to UK etc): we will get what we are given - full stop. And I tell you now that what we are given will be held up as a wonderful political achievement - well, won't it?.

Theresa's public persona and any private negotiations with the EU representatives are not necessarily the same. She is not going to please everybody and nor would Jeremy or anyone else. No one will be negotiating alone. They will have advisers. There will be debate in the house of commons. Business leaders will lobby. And probably "no deal is better than a bad deal"

 

[Craiglxviii]

The politicians won't negotiate anything at all. That's the job of the civil service diplomats. The politicians will provide the guidance framework for the negotiations. No more, no less. That's how it works.

 

[davemercedes]

This could go on forever. I've made my feelings about Theresa May clear and going by the election result I'm not gifted with any special powers because a lot of the electorate thought the same or similar. I remain unhappy that she has titular responsibiity for the negotiations and I'm convinced that whatever she gets given will be held up as a "Great Win" (to go with the Great Repeal etc...) but I don't think that will fool the electorate either.

It continues as a dreadful Catch-22 - like voting in general you can only pick the best of a lousy choice but right now nobody, not even Bumbling Boris is going to try and steal the "poisoned chalice" of the premiership.

 

[davemercedes]

Genuine question: what is the obstacle to a cross-party negotiation team?

It strikes me there are some who can bring skills/presence to the table who will otherwise be excluded.
The referendum was less partisan?

Perhaps there is a good reason - I can't think of it...

One big reason: Politicians (the ones who signed all the treaties etc).
But frankly if I was in Mayhem's shoes I'd jump at the chance of having more people in the fray because it would dilute the blame!

 

[Frontstep]

Is it me, but no deal is certainly better than a bad deal to me.

Signing up to a bad deal of who knows what length and no enthusiasm from the Eurocrats to change it seems a recipe for disaster, a real Wonga deal.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Is it me, but no deal is certainly better than a bad deal to me.

Signing up to a bad deal of who knows what length and no enthusiasm from the Eurocrats to change it seems a recipe for disaster, a real Wonga deal.

No it isn't you. It's everyone who isn't a Liberalist.

 

[davemercedes]

No deal is better than a bad deal if you first tried to get a reasonable result. But sending that message along with saying that you're going to show how you're a b****y awkward woman, weeks before the first is held meeting is not conducive to good natured discussion.

And I'm certainly not a Liberalist just because I think Mrs Mayhem is useless.

 

[Frontstep]

Well I watched David Davis and Michael Barniers press conference and the feeble attempts to find rancour and disagreement between them by the mainly British media, watch it yourself then watch the reports of it you would think there had been another meeting.
The truth is both were on the same page Brexit means Brexit and the soft hard Brexit nonsense is exactly that.

There was no suggestion of "punishing" Britain just getting on with the massive task ahead.

Clearly trouble could be round the next corner but so far so good.

The mee-dia will no doubt look for trouble.

 

[Xtractorfan]

These two guys know each other from previous meetings, apparently since 2005, so it is only natural that they will have a forged a friendship from those meetings. David Davis and Michel Barnier were definitely on the same hymn sheet. so be interesting to see how it goes...Barnier was also here in Ireland a few weeks ago and is very aware of the difficulties with having a Hard border. So he also has done his homework.