Discussion in 'Politics' started by prwales, Feb 19, 2016.
Shall we put you down as a not sure then ......
so what is it then, an exercise in Teutonic world domination or a Socialist experiment, it can't be both
Boris "Out" apparently.... That's a surprise.
Probably the beginning of the end for Cameron, too.
i just don't know yet. time to be educated still though.
By the poorly educated posh boys, who can't even do sums? You'd be better doing the math on this thread
Then possibly renegotiate to rejoin on our terms - The original concept of free trade with Europe but no other involvement. If Europe want to expel Brits from their country then we do the same with theirs unless we specifically want their skills
If the EU won't re-negotiate with us to rejoin then we stay out... There are plenty of other countries we could trade with that we are restricted due to the EU.
As a net importer from the EU, European countries that pull out of the UK may suddenly find huge import duties for their product - since we will have control of that as well.. As the UK is regarded as "treasure island" how many will have the nerve to pull out.
Whoa whoa. Two things- Politics and TSR2, and they're both irretrievably the same!
Firstly I'm an "in" for the simple reason that it's better to have a toe in (and therefore a say in) the affairs of Europe than not. To quote Sir Humphrey Appleby:
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
Now, what part of that isn't as true today as it was in 1980?
Secondly, TSR2. A fabulous aeroplane, I personally think it to be gorgeous. Fast, long ranged and very very hard to shoot down. To quote Sir Sydney Camm, Hurricane/ Typhonn/ Tempest/ Hunter designer, "All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 got just the first three right ..."
Now, the history of this a/c is shrouded in political turmoil and one has to bear in mind what was happening on the other side of the Atlantic. The Americans were learning the lessons of Vietnam and were developing the F-111 (which, by the way, had the lowest sortie:loss ratio of ANY type in that war- it was not a lemon but a massively resounding success for the USAF). Secondly, they had also developed a huge, intercontinental Mach 3+ strategic bomber called the XB-70 Valkyrie, which looks like something out of Thunderbirds.
At the time, we were supporting a bloated and highly Inefficient defence establishment, one which we just could not afford to continue paying for with the additional burdens of the Welfare STate and NHS. In 1958, Duncan Sandys White Paper came out. This is something I used to vilify but on balance, and deeper analysis shows, it was a pretty sensible document and it actually saved the best of what was being proposed. What we lost were the outlandish projects. TSR-2 was swept up in the tail end of the reforms that document began.
Now, there is a school of thought- that I half subscribe to- that goes along the line that anything that can challenge the security of a nuclear deterrent is a bad thing, especially in the world of the 1960s. That is, if both sides (NATO: Warsaw Pact) are secure behind their respective nuclear deterrents, Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is in effect and détente is reached; the world ticks along. If, suddenly, one side has the ability to strike without the other side responding, then the side at risk has little to lose by striking NOW, immediately, with everything in a pre-emptive counter-military/ counterforce strike. This was projected to happen if one side developed a working Anti Ballistic Missile defence system. The US did just this with its NIKE HERCULES and SPRINT systems- superb pieces of kit- and so the ABM treaty was written to remove both these and everything the Russians had, barring their Moscow-local ABM system. This therefore increased the security of the nuclear deterrents and made the world a safer place, believe it or not.
What both the XB-70 and TSR-2 did was place doubts on the ability of the defences to take them down. XB-70 could hold M3.5 at 80,000 feet, would have been armed with nuclear standoff anti-SAM site missiles and would have been out of the performance envelope of ANY SAM in the world to take down until around 2005, and even now the S-400 has just over marginal capability against it (pK of 3.0 if anyone is interested). TSR-2 would have been the same but low and very fast. There is thus a really high likelihood that both XB-70 and TSR-2 programs were shut down to prevent any destabilization of the global nuclear detent. They were both shut down in haste and secrecy with transparent pretences, and both shutdowns created much anger amongst the relevant communities still visible today.
What we lost with TSR-2 was a nuclear-capable high speed delivery and recon aircraft. What we gained though was the initiation of the MRCA project- Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. THAT in turn morphed into the Panavia Tornado which, despite what its detractors may have said, has been a resounding success for us. The technology from TSR-2 went straight into Tornado- just not the engines or colour scheme unfortunately.
By the way,. there is significant evidence now that TSR-2 would have been a maintenance nightmare as well as a real pig to airframe stress; at the time of design this was poorly understood and there are enough localized stress concentrators and multipliers in her basic structure that the airframes would not have been long-lived; a total redesign would have been necessary in order to sort this out. And in a way this happened- with the Tonka.
Sorry for the lengthy post but as with all of these things, there are always multiple reasons why things happen, especially where it comes to defence.
Now, if you want a REAL boggle, talk about NIMROD AEW or MRA.4........!!!
Here comes sport spoiling question of the day
What has this got to do with MB Forum?
Seems that some people on other threads go "off thread" and get pulled up for it, this one is meandering on but no such action taken ,the energy going into this could be directed to unanswered requests for help[not mine]
There are plenty of other forums to discuss this and of course you will get you chance to vote so please MB only
And finally to increase my popularity even futher,there are some offensive comments on here if you happen not be a stiff upper lip brit,so if you must continue please be careful
Where is the Teutonic world domination bit from, someone else's post ?
Its a Socialist experiment where people who are very comfortable in their own lives seem content to let people who aren't suffer in theirs so they can pursue a distorted agenda.
The EU at the moment is negotiating away in private Britains trading controls; its about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations.
Most people haven't the foggiest what it means.
This is the Benz-bin within the Benz-free zone. Have a read of this forum description.
Absolutely nothing Kirbs. However I'm much more interested in hearing what people on here say as opposed to some opinionated plonker on television who is getting paid for spouting their mouth off.
Ever closer union creeps closer every day whether anybody wants it or not. How else can the Eurocrats further justify their role in life and maintain their cushy jobs whilst being answerable to no-one. Soon national governments will have lost total control of what happens in their fiefdoms as Brussels slowly takes control of everything.
Believe it or not, I'm still on the fence as to which way to vote but I think it is clear which way I am leaning.
As things stand "I'm with Boris'"
You are in the wrong place, the posts aren't
Accepted but the majority of people come on here for help with MB and the contributors on here know more about MB's than politics ,my points about energy and offensive remain whichever forum you are on
In the earliest posts and fairly frequently Germany is seen as the ruler of the EU in all but name, but to be fair to the Germans, it was Napoleon that tried to unite Europe first, he failed by military means but succeeded in terms of laws, legal procedures and weights and measures
I suspect Boris Johnson has an ulterior motive. One idea put forward on R4 this morning was that if the UK leaves, it/we can then negociate even better terms if we offered to rejoin.
CMD's migrant benefits deal is only valid for 7 years.
I don't doubt you are right, I think we will see displays of awesome (and many more of less-than-awesome) politicking going on shortly.
If you think something is offensive...then say what it is, either here or by pressing the button.
Otherwise...this is Benz Bin and all subjects, within reason, are acceptable. Do you really think this subject will not be the main topic of conversation everywhere for the next 4 months?
I'm not sure you'd like technical advice from some of the posters on here anyway!
No, we wouldn't and for that reason "I'm out"
Separate names with a comma.