Build quality............

JBell

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My parents have a Polo 2010 1.2 DSG and it is a great little car, just runs and runs.
 

mercedes13156

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I recently had a W203 C Class written off after having the roof cut off. when I was up and about again, my wife and I, (who are both MB enthusiasts, she drives a 209 CLK Convertible), went looking for a larger car we could get our ageing parents in and out of. We looked at E and M Classes, Audi (but not BMW) and Volvo within a £9000 budget and what we could get locally was not inspiring. Given the knowledge of what goes wrong with the Mercs and others, (generally, not that much other than routine stuff), we looked at practicality, comfort and finish in other cars. I had always been impressed with my daughter's Ford KUGA, my son's Focus, and my neighbour's Mondeo, all of which are very well finished inside and out. In fact, I would say they are as well finished as the equivalent year Mercs. They are all more economical to run than the equivalent Merc and all have had zero issues over a three year period. In contrast, most of the Mercs I looked at were either a bit ratty and worn with malfunctioning kit like the panoramic roof, Sport/Comfort selector on the gearbox, glove box latches, broken electric seats / heated seats / electric mirrors. One had the black death and another was in permanent limp mode (we'll fix that when we sell it!).

Given all of that, we bought a 2011 plate 4WD Kuga with Powershift and all the options with 60k on the clock. It's economical to run and does everything it's asked to with no issues and no rattles. We had a slightly rough wheel bearing changed under the warranty. It's a fantastic car and for me it proves how much Ford have improved against the premium marques like MB, Audi and Volvo. It might be mass produced, but so is everything else.

I might go back to a Merc, but for the moment I'm really pleased with my Ford.
 

KennyN

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The CLS is the first MB i have owned and was expecting more , or less depending on how you look at it, from a car with the initial price tag of around £50k . What really gets me is the things that have failed on mine over the last two years have been failing on the W219 since it first went on sale in `05 , you would like to think that with the outgoing 2010 model the all "snagging" issues would have been sorted.

Front springs / GP relay + plugs / exhaust and inlet sensors x 2 / front suspension arms x 2 all of which i wouldnt class as consumables with a car with less than 35k miles on it.

Other common faults that i am just waiting on are - turbo / turbo actuator / window mechanisms .

I dont care if the car will reach 1,000,000 miles with the correct maintenance , i just want one that will do 50k without needing much more than proper servicing.

Kenny
 
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Yugguy

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Craig's point about VAG commonality is the reason I'd never drive an Audi. Not because I think they are driven by ******s, or are not a good car, but simply that your 2.0 diesel A4 is no better than your 2.0 diesel Octavia.
 

John Laidlaw

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Craig's point about VAG commonality is the reason I'd never drive an Audi. Not because I think they are driven by ******s, or are not a good car, but simply that your 2.0 diesel A4 is no better than your 2.0 diesel Octavia.
Indeed! I had an A6 Avant S Line Black edition, we just furnished our Dutch sales manager with a Skoda Superb and the Superb is in my opinion a better car with Moore character
 

Craiglxviii

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Craig's point about VAG commonality is the reason I'd never drive an Audi. Not because I think they are driven by ******s, or are not a good car, but simply that your 2.0 diesel A4 is no better than your 2.0 diesel Octavia.

Ah, but it is. While the basic parts are often identical, there are subtle differences that can significantly affect the performance of the vehicle. So, one area where VAG apply a diagonal grading is NVH. So VAG have a brand differentiation that goes something like this (brand "premiumness" increasing down and to the right):

Skoda
... SEAT
...... Volkswagen
......... Audi

So for comparable models within each brand the NVH pack applied will be steadily increased in performance, thus (made-up example):

Octavia will get -1.5dB net reduction
... Leon will get -2.5dB net reduction
...... Golf will get -3.25dB net reduction
......... A3 will get -4.05dB net reduction

Remember ze Germans in general are very good at the "feelgood factors", the seemingly insignificant little items that make people prefer their cars over their rivals in so many cases; these little items all add up perceived quality/ premium "feel" and they are all graded diagonally as well. So while your A3 may have the same powertrain as your mate's Octavia, it will have a significantly different "feel" to many aspects of driving.
 

Taffy7hfa

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2002 ML 270 CDI,2016 Hyundai1.6 CRDI i30,2014 Peugeot 308 HDI. .6 HDI.
Swmbo currently has a 63 plate Peugeot 3008 HDI, very nice it is too, I wouldn't swap though,
the ML is quieter and still feels more luxurious, even at 15 years old...
 

turbopete

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And the rust in the late 90's wasn't because it was poor steel. It was ungalvanised body panels and a change of paint process and compound, due to environmentally friendly eco warriors sat in brussels.
and yet, pretty much every other manufacturer was getting BETTER in the rust department during the same era. INCLUDING Fiat/Alfa
 

turbopete

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The last small car we had in the family was my wife’s Ford KA and I recall that as being quite crude in the way it was put together. The doors clanged horribly, rather than a satisfying thunk and materials used inside were just plain nasty.
that was done largely as the car was designed to be a cheap small alternative to the bigger fiesta (people were saying at the time that the fiesta was getting too big for their needs, widowed pensioners, student types etc) in the days when the 'citycars' as we know them were in their infancy
 

turbopete

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Monday

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SL400 2016, CLS350 2020
I have spent the last 2 days up close and personal with my sons 2010 VW Polo 1.2 which he's left for me to sell on his behalf, having emigrated at the weekend. He's been using it for the past year as a commuting car, during which time it has been faultless, but received little or no attention from him, never mind washing or (heaven forbid) polishing!

Anyhow, I said I would fettle, thoroughly clean, polish and make it ready to sell for him and because of this, I've had the time to examine it in great detail. It pains me to admit this, it really does, especially on an MB forum but, horror of horrors, I actually think it is better designed and much better built than my '12 S204 C Class.

There are a lot of thoughtful little touches under the bonnet, particularly with clips and brackets holding various components in place. The doors close with a more solid and expensive sounding 'thunk' than my 204 and it is much better and more thickly painted in the little nooks and crannies around the door and tailgate openings. It's a lovely little car with no frills, just an innate quality feel about everything.

I'm truly shocked, not to say disappointed even.o_O I honestly thought it wouldn't hold a candle to my MB, but it seems there is a change afoot in the normally accepted world order of things. How can this be???

Surely it comes down to expectations being less on a sub-£10k car than on a £30k+ car. Like the OP, I had a 2002/52 reg VW Polo 1.0 (3 cyl engine). I bought it for my daughters to learn to drive and they then drove it for the next 11 years, through uni and climbing trips etc. They returned it to me occasionally to clean it and service it (at my cost of course) and when I could get my hands on it I used it as tip car and for shopping. It did everything we asked of it (first car we turned to when snow was on the ground as with narrow tyres and front wheel drive it would go almost anywhere, whilst the MB's slithered around). Parts especially tyres were cheap and the only thing it needed in those 11 years was to change the condensers (one/plug). And it was fast enough for one of them to get a ticket for 96mph on the M4 - it was an emergency! It was the lowest spec I could get hold of and deliberately went for the lawn mower sized engine so they couldn't speed - some hope as above but they never actually hit anything.

I paid £7k for it new and sold it for, I think, £1600. All in all it was a great little car - for £7k. But I still run 2 x MB's and would not want to be without the aircon, the satnav, the reclining seats, auto box etc etc etc and the effortless cruise capability of an E Class. But as a local run around - cant beat it.
 

Craiglxviii

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careful Craig. you might upset someone on here as that link (if I'm reading it correctly) puts Ford above everyone except Kia, Porsche and Genesis (whoever they are) which would put them above AL the germans, the Swedish, all British (by origin at least), Japanese, in fact EVERYONE that were supposed to be better!!!!

That’s improvements not absolutes and the US market- but that’s fact and data. Number of warranty concerns per 100 vehicles in the first 3 or 6mth of service life.

Genesis is Hyundai’s premium brand.
 

ajlsl600

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And the rust in the late 90's wasn't because it was poor steel. It was ungalvanised body panels and a change of paint process and compound, due to environmentally friendly eco warriors sat in brussels.

why do i have no trouble believing that............
 

Craiglxviii

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ajlsl600

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Because it’s still going on to this day..? (It is btw).
i love the french attitude to eu rules. go to the lunch, enjoy the wine,listen , leave ,ignore. then howl from the rooftops when others do the same.. BUT it does seem to work for them.
 

Craiglxviii

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careful Craig. you might upset someone on here as that link (if I'm reading it correctly) puts Ford above everyone except Kia, Porsche and Genesis (whoever they are) which would put them above AL the germans, the Swedish, all British (by origin at least), Japanese, in fact EVERYONE that were supposed to be better!!!!

So. These are the results for this year's UK Vehicle Dependability Study. The scoring is based on customer concerns per 100 vehicles over the first 3 years of ownership. As you can see it is somewhat different to the US survey.

2017 UK VDS.jpg


Germany has it again somewhat different. Note how the Industry Average incidents PP100 is higher than in the UK.

2017 GER VDS.jpg

The US survey is here. Again you can see the results are skewed in a totally different direction brand-wise. However again you'll notice that the industry average is significantly higher than the UK's.

2017 US VDS.jpg
 

Frosty149

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quote:
Craig's point about VAG commonality is the reason I'd never drive an Audi. Not because I think they are driven by ******s, or are not a good car, but simply that your 2.0 diesel A4 is no better than your 2.0 diesel Octavia.
Ah, but it is. While the basic parts are often identical, there are subtle differences that can significantly affect the performance of the vehicle. So, one area where VAG apply a diagonal grading is NVH. So VAG have a brand differentiation that goes something like this (brand "premiumness" increasing down and to the right):

Skoda
... SEAT
...... Volkswagen
......... Audi
"
Interesting reading against the reliability matrices you just posted, it seems the more 'premium' the more problems for VAG, certainly not that simple but the figures suggest it:rolleyes:;)
 

umblecumbuz

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I love Mercs, but with several other vehicles I honestly don't know why.

I have a Berlingo Multispace, eight years old now, which is used as a camper. Up to 108k miles now, and nary a hiccup anywhere. It's so smooth! The hdi engine is far quieter than any Merc I've had, and the torque from around 1300 revs amazes me.

My Fiat Panda diesel, in all its eight years of life, has never had an Advisory and has never gone wrong. It's abused terribly and just reliably goes without a single worry.

Then I get in my Merc, and love the way it eats miles with character. But ... it goes wrong with stupid niggles regularly, and requires cosseting. Other cars have caught up and even surpassed the Mercs for sheer hands-off reliability.

Maybe the time is close to say goodbye.
 

ajlsl600

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So. These are the results for this year's UK Vehicle Dependability Study. The scoring is based on customer concerns per 100 vehicles over the first 3 years of ownership. As you can see it is somewhat different to the US survey.

View attachment 39423


Germany has it again somewhat different. Note how the Industry Average incidents PP100 is higher than in the UK.

View attachment 39424

The US survey is here. Again you can see the results are skewed in a totally different direction brand-wise. However again you'll notice that the industry average is significantly higher than the UK's.

View attachment 39425


very interesting. and i believe directly linked to over complication of build gimicks ect. and i bet that the lack of dependability is directly linked to unreliable electrics rather than mechanical failure.
 


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