Chelsea Tractors

[Andy Wr]

..........

 

[hawk20]

new rules are on the way from Euro NCap that says that the figures attained must be shown on the car, the same way that it is shown on domestic appliances.

Malcolm

Sorry, but figures for what, please? I thought NCAP did safety and the A class came out top of its class. And the B class too?

 

[Hibbo]

Sorry, but figures for what, please? I thought NCAP did safety and the A class came out top of its class. And the B class too?

I believe these figures are for whiplash. Please see Malcolm's original thread http://www.forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=24681

 

[Hibbo]

Dispute these facts

1) A chelsea tractor uses more fuel and thus emits more pollutants than a 'normal' car with the same engine.
2) Chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users.
3) A pedestrian hit by a chelsea tractor is more likely to be killed than if they were hit by a 'normal' car (other things being equal).

There are a lot of opinions on this thread, and arguments that begin with "I think..." (myself included), but the above are FACTS.





This thread nearly slipped off the first page!

 

[Andy Wr]

All facts and statistics can be manipulated to suit who ever, regarding greenhouse gasses, global warming, the end is nigh, the goverment etc are proposing to tax everyone for the depleted ozone layer but that money will go to goverment central funds, there is not a team of engineers ready to repair the damage and what about the non eu countries who do not have to comply with all the green regs, no one can tell me any different as I work with refrigeration gasses and know first hand about India, Russia, China.............lots of eastern countries who are doing a lot of damage but allowed to get away with it.

The ozone layer damage and global warming was first noticed in the early 1900's before cars, aircraft, aerosol etc was popular, there are so many contradicting reports by specialists and scienticts regarding global warming etc that I have read since the early 80's, lets cut air travel or quadruple it in price and lets do away with space exploration while we are at it and we may as well close all the take aways and restaurants because of the gasses that they can produce..............the worlds gone mad.

 

[psmart]

1) A chelsea tractor uses more fuel and thus emits more pollutants than a 'normal' car with the same engine.

Please see http://www.4x4prejudice.com/environment.php

2) Chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users.

People Carriers (Renault Espace, Ford Galaxy, Mercedes V-Class etc), Vans (Ford Transit, Fiat Ducato, Mercedes Sprinter etc), HGV's, Busses, Tractors, Cars with Roof Boxes .....

3) A pedestrian hit by a chelsea tractor is more likely to be killed than if they were hit by a 'normal' car (other things being equal).

A normal car... define? A Rolls Royce Silver Spur is a Normal Car, how much chance do you think a pedestrian has? please see http://www.4x4prejudice.com/safety.php

Facts are mathematically calculated and proved 'exacts', such as 0, 1, Prime Numbers, Pie, all others are Human interpretations according to their own agenda.

 

[Hibbo]

1) A chelsea tractor uses more fuel and thus emits more pollutants than a 'normal' car with the same engine.
2) Chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users.
3) A pedestrian hit by a chelsea tractor is more likely to be killed than if they were hit by a 'normal' car (other things being equal).

There are a lot of opinions on this thread, and arguments that begin with "I think..." (myself included), but the above are FACTS.





This thread nearly slipped off the first page!

Please see http://www.4x4prejudice.com/environment.php
People Carriers (Renault Espace, Ford Galaxy, Mercedes V-Class etc), Vans (Ford Transit, Fiat Ducato, Mercedes Sprinter etc), HGV's, Busses, Tractors, Cars with Roof Boxes .....
A normal car... define? A Rolls Royce Silver Spur is a Normal Car, how much chance do you think a pedestrian has? please see http://www.4x4prejudice.com/safety.php

Facts are mathematically calculated and proved 'exacts', such as 0, 1, Prime Numbers, Pie, all others are Human interpretations according to their own agenda.

You have failed to dispute any of the facts. I deliberately stuck to three things that are irrefutable.

1) Maybe you misread fact 1; A chelsea tractor compared with a 'normal' car WITH THE SAME ENGINE. I specifically did NOT say "all chelsea tractors emit more than all 'normal' cars". FACT.

3) I am not stating facts about vans, people carriers, buses etc. The fact I have stated is the chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users. FACT.

3) You are being ridiculous now. That is why use said 'normal' in inverted commas. I could have instead gave a huge list of cars (E-class, A4, Golf Focus etc etc etc etc etc - but obviously not a Roller).


I was careful to leave my opinion out, and only state FACTS.
If you dispute any of them please give actual reasons that directly relate to them.

 

[Apial]

You have failed to dispute any of the facts. I deliberately stuck to three things that are irrefutable.



3) I am not stating facts about vans, people carriers, buses etc. The fact I have stated is the chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users. FACT.



I.

I can't for the life of me understand what you are trying to prove with this "fact". Even if we build vehicles of transparent material, the driver will reduce the visibility. I often have my visibility blocked by pedestrians at the side of T-junctions. Should we ban them too?

I only bother too mention this "fact" as chelsea tractor drivers do not have this problem- they can see over the top of them.
This fact of yours is definately irrefutable, but also totally irrelevant.

 

[television]

I only bother too mention this "fact" as chelsea tractor drivers do not have this problem- they can see over the top of them.
QUOTE]


Sadly when you are at a road junction,and you have one of those things either on the right or the left of you,its impossible to see a thing until they have gone,when they are on the right of you,and you want to turn left,it inhibits a smple turn, as you cant see a thing.

Malcolm

 

[Andy Wr]

Sadly when you are at a road junction,and you have one of those things either on the right or the left of you,its impossible to see a thing until they have gone,when they are on the right of you,and you want to turn left,it inhibits a smple turn, as you cant see a thing.

I know exactly what you mean, when I am in my chelsea tractor and I have vans, buses, lorries etc at the side of me, neither can I see a thing.

 

[Apial]

I only bother too mention this "fact" as chelsea tractor drivers do not have this problem- they can see over the top of them.
QUOTE]


Sadly when you are at a road junction,and you have one of those things either on the right or the left of you,its impossible to see a thing until they have gone,when they are on the right of you,and you want to turn left,it inhibits a smple turn, as you cant see a thing.

Malcolm

I have the same problem with an ordinary car on my right. So I just learn to live with it. The World is not a perfect place! The fact that chelsea tractors are opaque is hardly unique, on the contrary, it is in common with virtually every other road user. Have I failed to notice the invisible car?

 

[hawk20]

1) A chelsea tractor uses more fuel and thus emits more pollutants than a 'normal' car with the same engine.
2) Chelsea tractors reduce the visibility of other road users.
3) A pedestrian hit by a chelsea tractor is more likely to be killed than if they were hit by a 'normal' car (other things being equal).

There are a lot of opinions on this thread, and arguments that begin with "I think..." (myself included), but the above are FACTS.

This thread nearly slipped off the first page!

Yes but they are what are known as highly selective facts -chosen to give the impression that they lead to a worthwhile conclusion --although they don't. Take your first point that a 4x4 uses more fuel than a 'normal' car with the same engine. You might equllay argue that an E class uses more fuel that a C class with the same engine. So what? Do you want to ban the E class??

Equally I could select this fact: - Diesel Mercedes ML 4x4's emit less CO2 than Malcolm's SL sports car and than all SL500's. So shall we cut tax on diesel ML's and ban Malcolm's SL and all other 500 SL's. Or force them to fit them with diesels eh Hibbo?

I love the 'fact' that 4x4's restrict other road users visibility. So do tall people. Let's ban them. Let us ban anything which is different, or unusual, or which Hibbo doesn't own.

 

[stever]

You can cherry pick data to support opposing arguments! On environmental grounds, a level playing field can be achieved through fuel duty or CO2 emissions - as you pay less by driving less or using a more efficient car, so 4x4 owners could not argue that they are being victimised in comparison to owners of other road vehicle types. With 4x4s it's the safety aspect I have most issue with. There's plenty of evidence to show that most are far more dangerous for the pedestrian and the other car driver in the event of an accident.

 

[Hibbo]

Let us ban anything which is different, or unusual, or which Hibbo doesn't own.

At last, someone who is talking sense.

 

[3146bj]

. There's plenty of evidence to show that most are far more dangerous for the pedestrian and the other car driver in the event of an accident.

What the hell is the pedestrian doing on a road anyway? It is a ROAD - you know- for cars and ROAD vehicles. If they want to walk on a road, let them live with the consequences!

 

[Apial]

I love the 'fact' that 4x4's restrict other road users visibility. So do tall people. Let's ban them. Let us ban anything which is different, or unusual, or which Hibbo doesn't own.

Thats hardly fair. We will all have to drive large engined old tech diesels belching out lung harming pollutants with 2 wheel drive incapable of towing anything off-road.

For that matter I had better watch out as the horse trailer will get banned too, unless Hibbo has one of course.

 

[television]

What the hell is the pedestrian doing on a road anyway? It is a ROAD - you know- for cars and ROAD vehicles. If they want to walk on a road, let them live with the consequences!

Sadly life is not that simple,where there are cars and people, people are going to get hurt.
People will always walk on the road, if not only to get to the other side.

Maybe one day you will be crossing the road at a time when you have something on your mind, or a speeding motorist driving a 4 x 4 with bull bars will get you.

Malcolm

 

[Apial]

Sadly life is not that simple,where there are cars and people, people are going to get hurt.
People will always walk on the road, if not only to get to the other side.

Maybe one day you will be crossing the road at a time when you have something on your mind, or a speeding motorist driving a 4 x 4 with bull bars will get you.

Malcolm

There you go, more anti 4x4 propoganda. 4x4s all drive around speeding with bull bars. Please.....

Speeding and bull bars will cause a higher mortality rate, but so would a snow blower on the front. There is no need to exagerate.

 

[Hibbo]

What the hell is the pedestrian doing on a road anyway? It is a ROAD - you know- for cars and ROAD vehicles. If they want to walk on a road, let them live with the consequences!

That's a tremendous attitude, well done. You wonder why people have such a downer on chelsea tractor drivers, and then you come out with nonsense like that.

Thats hardly fair. We will all have to drive large engined old tech diesels belching out lung harming pollutants with 2 wheel drive incapable of towing anything off-road.

For that matter I had better watch out as the horse trailer will get banned too, unless Hibbo has one of course.

Firstly, my vehicles run on biofuels.
Secondly, where has this getting things banned come from? Hawk20? Not me.
(Although I do think there is some logic in banning private vehicles over a certain kerb weight from town centres)

And for crying out load Apial, I have said loads of times; IF YOU NEED A 4x4 FOR TOWING A HORSE BOX ACROSS A MARSH THEN FINE. You don't need one if the most arduos trek you make is to Sainsbury's.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

This thread could go on for some time, certainly a worthy debate.

To add my 6 penneth:

I feel that large 4x4s have no place in an urban situation. My kids are well past the age when they walked to school or caught the bus but I must admit that if they still did I would be very concerned if half a dozen of these offroaders accumulated around the school gates, the ensuing mayhem and danger to children is obvious.

If these vehicles are to survive they will need to downsize and use engines that emit average emissions or evolution will take its course.

As they have an agricultural origin the bumper level if far too high for general road use, goodness knows how they get type approval. It must be something to do with HGV regs but they are not driven at the same speeds as HGVs perhaps if they were they wouldn't be so popular.

To sum up its easy to say live and let live but if you are a pedestrian or a motorist in an average size car the likehood is that if one of these vehicles hits you you will not walk away or you will come off a lot worse.