Concrete Tile Dust saga .... time to get tough?

[Submariner1]

Fingers crossed for you Peter. Hope you get that cack off your car and no damage done.

Thanks Craig.
On the positive side, not sure if its the Valley Pro Snow foam or just the constant ‘no contact’ washing, but she is getting better and better. Pretty sure the cement film has gone, and may may just be a few bits of grit bound on.
Obviosly as warned by those top Maclaren Body shop guys, the initial Clay will induce slight micro marring.

The tech guy at 3M was super helpful. And interestingly said he'd used the Makita DA I was considering using if I did it myself , and it was easily the best DA on the Market. ( silky soft start, absolutely no jerk when you start it placed the panel, capable of very low speeds 0- 18,000 rpm, and no wobble i.e. superb gearing and bearings.).

He said using that and the Ultrafina SE (usually only reserved for a final polish on Black Cars ) and the corresponding Final Blue Pad, and set on the low speed, one would have to deliberately try to destroy the clear coat on a car.
He said any careful person, who kept it wet with product, kept the revs down, and kept the pad flat on the panel would be very hard pressed to take of more than one or two micron.
He laughed and said ... I bet you will do it, and then go and buy the Yellow Ultrafina i.e. the normal final finish polish, just to get rid of a few more swirls and make it look like a diamond.

So as There is little point in doing or getting the polishing done, until the scaffolding is down, and the site is cleaned/washed down and hopefully the constant wash regine gets rid of virtually all of the grit. (So far a dramatic improvement circa 97% better).

My plan is to assess it then, test clay a small area and then decide ... try it myself or hand it to the pros.
I will have a test go on the A Class first.
If as 3M’s guy says the SE polish is similar to hand polishing with AG SRP and pressing the microfibre applicator cloth firmly. Then I will have a go.
If in any doubt its off to the Pros!

Just a question
Is it easier (and more precise - total uniform coverage) applying Collinite 476S with a DA and a specialist wax pad ( i.e. non abraisive pad) rather than by hand?

Just thinking is there a future use for the tool?

 

[A.J.]

I wasn't generalizing, I was stating the builders I know, through my customer base in my area.
.

See, we are much more laid back in Suffolk !

 

[Submariner1]

As above Peter- sounds like a good compromise has been reached and if he follows through sounds like he’s the decent sort. He did offer in the first place so I guess this is an extension of that initial offer

Make no mistake, he is no Christian!
Yes he did initially offer, “just get it done, and send me the bill”

Being a bit smarter than falling for that, I realised there is detailing and detailing.
So I went the quote route. Advising him as things progressed.
Which he initially balked at! ( so kinda renaged on the commitment )
Then when pressed, said he needed the weekend to think it over!
Then ignored my written request for a week ... zero response Na Da!
Then when the written request was repeated, and noting his failure to respond.
He responded saying “I will talk it over with my co director and respond in due course”

What made him react was I informed my Neighbour that as his building job was coming to the end, I suggested he withold the £700 and say £20,000 for legal fees.
The neighbour laughed and said £20,000! I said yep my nephew will be used for Councils opinion he is £1,750 oer hour .. say 3 hours, and he’s got a specialist Solicitor based in Lincoln’s in Field with a charge out rate of £850 per hour.

Even at our meeting he tried to knock me down, until I said ...
Give me a break I am asking you for £700, here are 3 alternative quotes £1500 £1500 and £2,100!
I can quite easily pick one of these and add a cost for my labour say 20 hours careful washing etc.

And if you dont thank me for taking the cheapest route, then I may as well go the whole hog, and then we get into you contaminating the site! And breaking the HSE Law!
You may get on with my new neighbours, but trust me I know the other 5 adjacent ones ... some for 20 years ... if / when they find out this site is contaminated with Silica! You wouldnt believe the sh*t storm, that will erupt. My guess they would put him out of business!

But it was his lucky day ... he saw the light!

I am a great beleiver in 3 strikes and then you are out!
He was on strike 4!

To me a decent sort ... is the kind who says please get a quote, and if its reasonable I will sort it. And when given 3 reasonable quotes says .. I am sorry my guys did this, I will have a strong word, so it doesnt happen again ...
And then says, can I have your bank details so I can transfer the cash tomorrow!

 

[SL63 Mark]

Reading this, I would ditch that builder as soon as possible. Never mind the car, he has exposed you and your family to lethal dust, which may cause long term harm. If possible, end the contract relationship with him as soon as possible in a calm way, and get him off site.

 

[Capra]

Reading this, I would ditch that builder as soon as possible. Never mind the car, he has exposed you and your family to lethal dust, which may cause long term harm. If possible, end the contract relationship with him as soon as possible in a calm way, and get him off site.

I thought it was a neighbours builder? Either way you're correct, this could have been very harmful.

 

[EmilysDad]

I thought it was a neighbours builder? ....

It was

 

[Submariner1]

Reading this, I would ditch that builder as soon as possible. Never mind the car, he has exposed you and your family to lethal dust, which may cause long term harm. If possible, end the contract relationship with him as soon as possible in a calm way, and get him off site.

Its the neighbours builder.
Funny you should say, during the negotiations; when I raised the HSE issue my neibour joined the builders side and said “well I just want to put this on the table, as the home owner I am not at all worried about the health risk, and I have 2 small children”.

I was flabbergasted!
And asked if he had read the document I sent him, where the latest HSE research attributed 600 deaths per annum to this dust! In this segment of the construction Industry alone. Hence the new directive in 2012 banning dry cutting of concrete roof tiles.

I simply asked, how many deaths would convince him when the government classify something as a Health Hazard, and the company, who makes them said you have a serious problem? No answer.

I just said, “hmmmm I guess thats pretty much what the contractors, who clad Grenfell Towers said, until it caught fire!

Oh well Obviously time must be a factor here, ... your kids are what 3 and 5 years old, Chucky ( my CAT ) is now 7, so I guess the longer you have them the more you love them. I am sure by the time they are 7 years old, you will value their lives more than the cosy relationship with your builder.

And your wife tells me the small one has had breathing difficulties since the tile cutting! Er is that not the first sympthoms of Silicosis!

Blimey if he was my son he would have seen the best Respiratory Consultant in the south of England by now.

Lets get real here ... he (the builder) put us all at risk, because he callously put profit ahead of our health, for gods sake you can hire a serious wet bed cutter for £300 a week!

Hey different strokes for different folks .... if he was my builder I would be asking for an immediate clean up, and a stonking discount ( think 35% minimum ) for putting my kids at serious risk!”
And if he even blinked ... he would end up paying me for the privilege of doing my Loft Conversion!”

Ha ... that went down well!
You could cut the atmosphere with a knife!

I haven't worked out if he is seriously thick, or scared of his builder not finishing the job or what?

Or maybe he twigged at the end of the day, under Agency Law he is liable for his agents, so even if the Builder closes shop and restarts as xyz 2018 Ltd, he the house owner would carry the can!
So just wanted to try and minimise the situation .... hmm as if I didnt know that.

 

[Submariner1]

I thought it was a neighbours builder? Either way you're correct, this could have been very harmful.

Yep, and it sure could be

For those who ever encounter this issue Or are interested:-
Changes to approved methods of roof tile cutting to protect against silica dust
September 2012
From 1st October 2012, contractors will no longer have the option of using a cut-off saw to dry cut valley tiles.
In a bid to reduce the risks from silica dust, industry has supported changes to working methods which mean that, should a cut-off saw be used for cutting valley tiles, water suppression as well as the correct RPE will also be expected. This is in line with the controls currently in use for cutting tiles in other sections of the roof.
Contractors do have the option of using other methods as long as they can demonstrate these are equally as effective at controlling the silica risk.
More information about this can be found on the National Federation of Roofing Contractors (NFRC) website [1].
Note: This is not a change to the law. The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002 (as amended) still apply in the same form. Inspectors can take enforcement action should they find that risks from silica are not being managed effectively to comply with the law.
The changes to working methods result from recent work by HSE to monitor the exposure of roofers to silica dust. This has shown that levels of silica dust created when dry cutting valley tiles are much higher than published safety limits. This means that a high standard of control is needed.
Silica is a natural mineral present in large amounts in many construction materials like concrete roof tiles. The silica is broken into very fine dust (also known as Respirable Crystalline Silica or RCS) during common tasks such as cutting. Regularly breathing in this dust can cause serious lung disease like silicosis and lung cancer. Recent HSE research
has estimated that silica may be responsible for the deaths of over 600 people each year who have worked in construction.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/silica-dust-article.htm 12/07/2018, 01?25 Page 1 of 2

That was the document I sent him ... and he is still not bothered about his kids health!
They have been swimming in it for 4 weeks!
Mind blowing eh!

On the Positive side the Builders £ transfer cleared ... so maybe he is learning!


Oh well Subs Prediction of the Day ....
Once the site has ended, the Builder will try and do a minimal token clear up! And the new dumb**** young neighbour will try and fob it off.

Then I will have a little chat with the 5 other surrounding “Old School” residents, and get the ground and yes the flat garage roof with the stone chippings tested that would be a bastard to clean ... er what did someone say reroof! . and if it fails then he either goes to town on the clear up, or he will get Royally F*cked. By the neighbours, one after another and then we call the HSE in!

Dont worry I promise to be gentle, will give up when the Legal fees and Court costs hit £159,000 . Yeah you guessed ... the limit per annum on the Legal Protection policy.

 

[V6Matty]

£160k on legal fees and court costs, you'll be through that in 4 months max, total costs for this job I'd predict for yourself and the other residents will be close on 900k, if it really is as bad as you say, you do have a way of over dramatising things at times

 

[Frontstep]

Interesting story and its one I have personal experience of.
The issue seems to have been resolved now so there isn't much point in me commenting.
This is the search facility for the HSE register of prosecutions you will see many household names.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/Default.asp

 

[Crispian]

Sorry,but this is coming across as you seem to be more interested in how much money you can squeeze out of this chap,almost to the point of blackmailing him.......

Anyone can make a genuine mistake.

He didn't wake up one morning and think 'let's get one over the chap with the Merc'....

Dealing with an obvious OCD sufferer would make anyones life hard.....

Will you be trying to sue the local haulage/bus company also for diesel particulate fall out ?

Perhaps the nearest airport,don't forget the threat of 'chemtrails'........

 

[Submariner1]

Sorry,but this is coming across as you seem to be more interested in how much money you can squeeze out of this chap,almost to the point of blackmailing him.......

Anyone can make a genuine mistake.

He didn't wake up one morning and think 'let's get one over the chap with the Merc'....

Dealing with an obvious OCD sufferer would make anyones life hard.....

Will you be trying to sue the local haulage/bus company also for diesel particulate fall out ?

Perhaps the nearest airport,don't forget the threat of 'chemtrails'........

Think you must have mis read!
I took the cheapest quote for him to fix the car. Circa half the price of many quotes!
This was only possible by me doing about 20 hours work ...precleaning.
I didnt charge him a penny for the labour.

As for cleaning up the site ... all I want is him to do it properly!
No compensation £ asked for!

“A genuine mistake” ... excuse me! if you start a business, you should know what you are doing, and the associated risks.
As their speciality is Loft Conversions .. I’d say a high percentage of his business must be adapting roofs!
As concrete tiles are very prevalent, lord knows how many people he has put at risk.

Did you read that link?

I guess if a chap thought he could make a living in waste management, and realised their were high prices in nuclear waste. And just dug a pit, in a field in mid wales and buried it 2 ft under. And then got caught when it leached into the water table ..... Er that would be OK by you!, as the “poor chap” didnt realise that the half life of Plutonium was 25,000 years!

As I am all for the quiet life, ergo lived here 26 years ... not a single disgruntled word with any neighbour, allowed them to build the whole house next door. Not one issue with that builder!
He was courteous and considerate, and didnt put our health at risk!

He will only get penalised if he doesnt clean the site up properly!

Tell you what I have done wrong!
Its a pretty poor show that I didnt get him prosecuted ... to make sure he doesnt do it again.
But I admit I cant be bothered to fight other people’s battles.
Obviously its OK by you to saturate the area with Silica Dust ...

Either you didnt read it properly or boy ... you must be short on grey cells!

 

[peterws1957]

Great to hear of a nice result Sub. Not all contractors are the same as said above. Strange post from the last poster.

 

[Submariner1]

Great to hear of a nice result Sub. Not all contractors are the same as said above. Strange post from the last poster.

I know some people today dont seem to have standards.
An even stranger reaction was from the home owner saying he wasnt at all worried about the health hazard!
A polite way of saying you are a fussy old, OCD git!

But we now hear one of his little ones has breathing difficulties since the work!
No Sh*t! ... one of the main initial sympthoms of Silicosis is “being short of breath or general breathing difficulties”.
And the dipstick still supports his ‘fellow sportsman type’ builder!
I give up!

Well I will just leave it, and make sure they do a proper clean up process!

I am pretty chilled about it, because I know the other neighbours (very nice people btw) will go ballistic if they ever hear about it.

 

[L John]

But we now hear one of his little ones has breathing difficulties since the work!
No Sh*t! ... one of the main initial symptoms of Silicosis is “being short of breath or general breathing difficulties”.

I was at Ullswater last week and went out on an inflatable kayak with a life jacket in case of any problems, as unlikely as it would be needed, it seemed the right thing to do.
After getting out I saw a bloke put a toddler on a loose camping chair that had been placed onto a longboard, no life jacket on father or child. He then kneeled onto the board and went out into the water.
Then he stood up (with the board wobbling) and proceeded to paddle out into the deeper water.
Just proir to that another bloke had a light on the front of the board and lost it due to his board wobbling due to the wake of a powered dingy.
Some people really don't have a clue but you have to let them get on with it.

 

[Wighty]

I was at Ullswater last week and went out on an inflatable kayak with a life jacket in case of any problems, as unlikely as it would be needed, it seemed the right thing to do.
After getting out I saw a bloke put a toddler on a loose camping chair that had been placed onto a longboard, no life jacket on father or child. He then kneeled onto the board and went out into the water.
Then he stood up (with the board wobbling) and proceeded to paddle out into the deeper water.
Just proir to that another bloke had a light on the front of the board and lost it due to his board wobbling due to the wake of a powered dingy.
Some people really don't have a clue but you have to let them get on with it.

He needs to read about Cold Water Shock in this hot weather .

 

[L John]

He needs to read about Cold Water Shock in this hot weather .

An 18 year old died at the same place a few years ago.
It amazes me that people think they are so good they don't need lifejackets, people can die with a lifejacket oin but in my mind its as important as seatbelts.
It should be law for anyone on small boats/boards and double penalty for anyone putting a child on the water even if theres no accident.

Not meaning to deviate the thread but the point is not enough people take responsibility for their children these days.
The world needn't be covered in cotton wool, kids should climb trees etc but when the same thing can be done in a safer way then I don't see why parents ignore the dangers completely.
As Sub's post, the parents were made aware of the dangers of the tile dust but still think the dust is OK and Sub is just a nuisance pointing out the danger and the law (which is in place because of previous deaths, mainly for the workers but damaging to all in the fall out area).

 

[peterws1957]

I was at Ullswater last week and went out on an inflatable kayak with a life jacket in case of any problems, as unlikely as it would be needed, it seemed the right thing to do.
After getting out I saw a bloke put a toddler on a loose camping chair that had been placed onto a longboard, no life jacket on father or child. He then kneeled onto the board and went out into the water.
Then he stood up (with the board wobbling) and proceeded to paddle out into the deeper water.
Just proir to that another bloke had a light on the front of the board and lost it due to his board wobbling due to the wake of a powered dingy.
Some people really don't have a clue but you have to let them get on with it.

F

I was at Ullswater last week and went out on an inflatable kayak with a life jacket in case of any problems, as unlikely as it would be needed, it seemed the right thing to do.
After getting out I saw a bloke put a toddler on a loose camping chair that had been placed onto a longboard, no life jacket on father or child. He then kneeled onto the board and went out into the water.
Then he stood up (with the board wobbling) and proceeded to paddle out into the deeper water.
Just proir to that another bloke had a light on the front of the board and lost it due to his board wobbling due to the wake of a powered dingy.
Some people really don't have a clue but you have to let them get on with it.

Funny that - we were at Ullswater today. 2 man canoe, adult and child. Father has life jacket, child without. Yep you do wonder what goes through peoples minds in some circumstances, such as contractors cutting up roof tiles and being unaware (or not giving a toss) of the consequences of their actions. I remember a few winters ago local lake having a frozen surface, lake about 500m across and some idiot father walking across pushing baby in pram and dog on lead.

 

[flowrider]

What about the health aspect? Paying for the car to be cleaned is one thing but i would have thought the main issue was to health. Has the health issue gone now that the builder has paid? Surely the HSE will not drop their investigation on submariners say so.

 

[EmilysDad]

An 18 year old died at the same place a few years ago.
It amazes me that people think they are so good they don't need lifejackets, people can die with a lifejacket oin but in my mind its as important as seatbelts. .....

but people never wore seat belts either until it was law to do so ..... I certainly never did. I also stood up in the back of a car leaning on the back of both front seats .... & yet I lived to tell the tale.