Diesel scrappage scheme ...

Yugguy

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Cars are an easy target though.

"Cargo ships are another source of pollution. A recent report found that just 15 of the biggest cargo ships currently pollute more nitrogen and sulphur oxides than all of the world's cars put together. The paper by environmental consultancy Carbon War Room said that the shipping industry would need $400billion (£330bn) investment in green tech to meet the 2021 air targets for the industry.
. "

So, are we all going to give up our Chinese-made electronic goods so we can have less cargo ships?

It makes me laugh. ALL petrol/diesel/gas internal combustion engines pollute. They'll probably find something (else) horrendous in petrol and panic-ban those.

Until we all go electric/hydrogen it's just ****ing in the wind.
 
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LostKiwi

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Well it seem a high proportion of diesel drivers are now stuffed bored and mounted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39488662

As above, Sadiq Khan is announcing plans to speed up tougher rules on vehicle pollution in London. I'm not sure - but I think it becomes effective in 2019.

Sir David King, the Government’s special representative for climate change and the chief scientific adviser under Blair and Brown, admitted the Government was wrong to encourage diesel vehicles.
- Apparently he stopped short of saying “tough s***” though.

My S203 which has 88k on the clock is probably easily good for another ten years but AFAIK it’s Emission Standard Euro 4 … and I think you will need Euro 6 to pass the London emissions test. I can do without visiting central London but every city council will soon pick up that there's money to be made - kerching!

A couple of questions|:

I asked this once before - is it really not possible to provide a mechanical or chemical solution for this issue?

If not, should we maybe start a petition that on the basis that most of us bought diesel cars following government encouragement then any pollution charges incurred should be tax-deductible?

This will be a short lived problem. As they ban older cars from town centers less people will go there. Less people = less business. Less business= decline of inner city areas.
Out of town shopping centers/business parks will become the norm and the councils will be left with a redevelopment headache/slums on their hands.
 

davemercedes

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This will be a short lived problem. As they ban older cars from town centers less people will go there. Less people = less business. Less business= decline of inner city areas.
Out of town shopping centers/business parks will become the norm and the councils will be left with a redevelopment headache/slums on their hands.

That's probably correct... and what will the councils do then?
- They'll put the rates up! :roll:
 

davemercedes

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It seems the PM has been shamed into promising "something" for diesel owners: -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39499331

Diesel car owners could get some help from the government if cities adopt new charges to tackle pollution, Theresa May has suggested.

It seems she wouldn't be drawn on what that "something" may be... I know we don't customer protection as strong as they do in USA but I'm mystified why there has been no apparent attempt by government to get compensation for VW owners.
 
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Robbierob

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Forget the scrappage scheme just with till they hit harder targets with MOT for Diesel cars, if the government wants us to give up our trusty steeds they will find a way through MOT and that ladies and gentlemen will be the Nail in our coffins GRRRRRR........
 

davemercedes

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I am still very surprised that no company has arrived or (apparently) is working on an economical solution to bring the older car's output down to acceptable levels.

As I said, my car is a 2007 C220 CDi Estate only now just past 90K miles and feels like a new car on the road. It has to be easily good for another 180K. Apart from not wishing to incur that kind of expense, I think scrapping a car like this would be criminal and of course, I'm one of many.
 

Frontstep

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Theres no market for such a device until legislation puts your car off the road.

A tax hike would have to be punitive and sudden then some one would have had to carry out the r&d in advance and have a product ready to roll at an attractive price.

The product would have to be adaptable to a large range of cars and communicate with them.

Where would it physically fit.

The only likely fix is a new engine to fit in your existing car and that is being done to taxi's in Birmingham;

https://www.bbpmedia.co.uk/news/aut...oject-to-clean-up-the-city-s-air-quality.html

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2016/12/15/viewpoint-taxi-drivers-champion-lpg-boost-air-quality/


£8,000 a go.............
 

Yugguy

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8k. That's a lot more than most of the affected cars would be worth.
 

Frontstep

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Perhaps the £4,500 subsidy for electric vehicles could be redirected.
 

yorkshire1

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Theres no market for such a device until legislation puts your car off the road.

A tax hike would have to be punitive and sudden then some one would have had to carry out the r&d in advance and have a product ready to roll at an attractive price.

The product would have to be adaptable to a large range of cars and communicate with them.

Where would it physically fit.

The only likely fix is a new engine to fit in your existing car and that is being done to taxi's in Birmingham;

https://www.bbpmedia.co.uk/news/aut...oject-to-clean-up-the-city-s-air-quality.html

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2016/12/15/viewpoint-taxi-drivers-champion-lpg-boost-air-quality/


£8,000 a go.............

£6250 taxpayer handout by the looks of it!

The Government is already showing support for LPG via the DfT’s Clean Air Fund which awarded £500,000 to Birmingham City Council to convert 80 diesel black cabs to LPG
 

malcolm E53 AMG

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Typical of a government firing from the hip on policy

The elephant in the room is who uses what and where, as regards diesel - lorry, van, bus, and taxi (in their many forms) are the worst offenders and should be first in line for any tax measures or financial inducements to encourage a change to a less polluting vehicle

A lot of older diesel vehicles like the 210 I'm running don't run in pollution hot spots and in my case the car is now used for less than 3k miles a year so what would the purpose be of taxing the car off the road it would be a terrible waste and make no difference what so ever

Unfortunately pollution is a very complex problem to solve certainly beyond the ability of the present encumbents in Parliament/Whitehall
 
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davemercedes

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In an article on Reuters today it says Theresa May has ordered a report into a possible Diesel Scrappage scheme.
- But it then talks of a £2000 payout.

£2k is not a worthwhile enough incentive to temp me to buy a new car! Especially when the car I have is (AFAIK) in perfect working order, maintained properly with new set of tyres etc and as I said earlier, it's condition at 90K miles suggests it would be fine for another 180K! From where I am it just looks like taxpayers (especially the "Just About Managing" that Theresa says she cares so deeply about) are going to get screwed once again.
- Nothing new, then on the horizon then!
 

Craiglxviii

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I am still very surprised that no company has arrived or (apparently) is working on an economical solution to bring the older car's output down to acceptable levels.

As I said, my car is a 2007 C220 CDi Estate only now just past 90K miles and feels like a new car on the road. It has to be easily good for another 180K. Apart from not wishing to incur that kind of expense, I think scrapping a car like this would be criminal and of course, I'm one of many.

Already replied to this same question on a separate diesel scrappage thread ;)

The "emissions control" function depends entirely on exactly what governments Base taxation on, which in turn is determined by what the international emissions standards people class the emissions as. In this country we have had such taxation metrics as:

Cylinder bore (decades of long- stroke, tiny bore engines resulted).
Engine displacement (small screaming engines).
CO emissions (everyone is suffocating).
CO2 emissions (nasty greenhouse gases).
Particulate emissions (yay for catalytic converters- but more of that dastardly CO2!)
NO emissions (yay for pigs' wee).

So, right now car designers are fitting both types of catalytic emissions control technology along with things like EGR, variable valve timing etc. to control emissions not just on a per vehicle level but on a meta level (think annual production output per OEM) by targeting sales of certain engine types to stay within the CAFE zone.

Adding an aftermarket SCR tank is tricky because of the highly involved nature of it. Where does it go (20 litres?) and how is it filled? How is it wired up, where does the pump go, how does it know how much to squirt and when? Is there a reverse feedback loop to the engine? Should the car drive without it in operation once fitted? Etc. All of that together is very likely more than the cost of replacing the car with one pre fitted.

So that's why there's no aftermarket solution.
 

davemercedes

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Thank you, Craig.

What that means in essence is we're screwed (or will be by 2020)! But if the reports are true, Theresa's solution to this "injustice" looks like they will offer us £2K to scrap our cars that'sd assuming the rules aren't so overly complex that only pink ones with 9 gears qualify! I saw the same model as mine - S203 - on the Bay the other week with 93K miles. It was flagged up as an "Easter Sales Offer" for £5950 so just to stand still would cost £4K.

But even that's irrelevant because as it stands it's probably worth about £10K to me (i.e.: fairly like for like replacement cost) and in the end it looks like I'll have to either never go near any city or maybe strangle the golden goose we've been saving for emergency roof repairs!
 

Craiglxviii

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No problem Dave. You are very welcome as always.

I think the issue that the government are addressing is more to do with the average age of the "second hand fleet" than anything else. They're giving incentives to those who can afford/ and/ or are most likely to benefit from them, to move to smaller more efficient cars.

Note how drivers of 5 litre V8s pre 2003 aren't penalised...? There are so few of them that making and enforcing new taxation rules would cost more than they'd recover.

So this is, I suspect, more about the Gubmint trying to remove the tens of thousands of Euro 4 Golfs/ Polos etc from the roads as opposed to screwing a relatively small number of drivers (of bigger more premium cars).
 

A.J.

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I got out of my diesel at the weekend, cost me a few quid but I was up for a change anyway. Now got a petrol engined one coming, I shall miss the torque of the diesel. The out going C220 had 400 NM, the incoming C180 only has 250NM. However there is only a difference of .4 of a second 0-60 on paper. It didn't feel too bad on the demo but then I didn't want to scare the salesman, not that one of those would !! :rolleyes:
 

Frontstep

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I think I need nuclear still, just oodles of North Korean atoms fighting to get out all trapped under my bonnet.

I shall call it the Trump-Un.
 

Craiglxviii

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Please ask Dr. Emmet Brown, Hill Valley, California for details of his alternative electric vehicle scheme.

You may have to provide the initial 1.21GW ;)

I think I need nuclear still, just oodles of North Korean atoms fighting to get out all trapped under my bonnet.

I shall call it the Trump-Un.
 

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