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Diesels and Hybrids

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by Frontstep, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    Yugguy and Headhurts like this.
  2. tode

    tode Senior Member

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    The Der Spiegel states that the manufacturers colluded to maintain an eight liter tank in Europe and that this continued until 2014:

    "
    This finally happened in June 2010, when the companies agreed to introduce smaller tanks. The marketing and sales departments had prevailed. The 8-liter target size was to remain the standard in Europe, while 16-liter tanks were planned for the U.S. market. Audi was permitted to install somewhat larger tanks in some of its models.

    With the introduction of stricter environmental regulations in the United States and Europe, the amount of AdBlue required to comply with legal limits also increased. The planned introduction of Euronorm 6, according to a March 2011 report by the relevant strategy group, would lead to an "increase in AdBlue consumption of up to 50 percent." This meant that the tanks were much too small. No one could expect customers to be reminded to refill the urea mixture every 2,000 to 3,000 kilometers.

    None of the players hit upon the obvious idea of installing larger tanks, thereby attaining the competitive advantage of being able to market cleaner cars. On the contrary. In a May 2014 email, Audi urgently warned against any company going it"

    However my (standard) 2011 S class has a 26 liter tank, which seems to invalidate the whole Der Spiegel argument.
     
  3. keefysher

    keefysher Senior Member

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    Just checked my AdBlu tank capacity on the phone tool you now get, 32.0 Litres. The previous W221 S350L (2012 year build) had a 24 litre tank in the boot under the spare wheel. Not checked where the tank is in the GLE as it has a filler next to the diesel one, whereas the S required removing boot floor shelf, spare wheel and cowling bung.

    And don't forget on a Service Plan the AdBlu is topped up as part of the service, not at rip off prices. You can also fill up AdBlu at petrol stations and truck stops.

    Had previously posted this link:
    http://uk.air1.info/en/adblue-supply/adblue-filling/
     
  4. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    The major problem with retrofit of SCR tanks to existing designs is that they just don’t have 20-30l of contiguous spare volume either easily accessible, or at all without removing something else like the spare wheel & toolkit.

    You should see some of the revised models coming out for Euro6D, with knobs and bumps in let’s just say unusual places where designers have shoehorned the tank in.
     
  5. PaulG

    PaulG Senior Member

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    32 litre tank will weigh (much) more than 32Kg...half a passenger. An amount that woukld cost millions to remove by lightening elsewhere on the body.

    You can see why manufacturers would want to keep them as small as owners would put up with....
     
  6. Yugguy

    Yugguy Senior Member

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    Perhaps bigger cars like S class had bigger tanks as they have bigger engines generally and can pull the extra weight without performance penalty. Every litre of adblue is a kg of weight.
     
  7. Frosty149

    Frosty149 Senior Member

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    Why would the 32kg tank weigh (much) more than 32kg?
    When full approx 32kg Adblue + tank, valve etc = 40 kg maybe? Also half or more of it's weight is being consumed...
    Don't disagree half a passenger, though.
     
  8. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    The tank, empty, weighs around 3kg.

    Adblue is 68% water. Urea has a specific gravity of 1.33, so a litre of Adblue will have a mass of (water) 0.68kg + (0.32 * 1.33 =) 0.43kg (urea) = 1.11kg. So a 32kg Adblue tank will have a mass of (1.11 * 32) + 3 = 38.5kg. So 6.5kg more than 32kg.

    However most Adblue tanks (by volume of sales) have to displace something else, typically the spare wheel which weighs around 20kg. So the net effect is in the 15-20kg mark.

    Passengers are assumed to be 75kg so yes half a passenger is correct.
     
  9. keefysher

    keefysher Senior Member

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    I attended one of those courses you opt for when you get a an invitation from the constabulary :shock::shock:

    Part of it was driving to save the environment, where the 'instructors' pushed the message of SCR, Start/Stop, no leaving empty roof racks on, stuff in the boot etc. They struggled to accept my point about the extra passenger you carry with the heavier battery, starter motor, AdBlue tank and associated gubbins (gubbins for Craig's benefit means all the bits added to the car and mass thereof, without the sums :):)). This is worse for a smaller car.

    The other point they didn't get was the 360 miles I drove that day to attend the course, burning a lot of fuel, as there weren't any courses locally :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    They also struggled when I enquired as to why the police drivers locked up on emergency braking and knocked the cones, representing pedestrians, over instead of using the abs to steer around the obstructions :shock::shock:

    As to how you drive at 70 on the way to the car ferry, and if you go above 70 you are going to die. When you cross the channel and do 70 you get nicked for driving too slowly, but drive on the wrong side of the road in the wrong side of the car at 80, and don't die :eek::eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 8:35 AM
  10. Frosty149

    Frosty149 Senior Member

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    Yep, me too, last year - it was an RSVP too
     
  11. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    Oh, the type where they make you an offer of an award- a certificate with 3 stars on it? Or a free advanced driving course.
     
  12. keefysher

    keefysher Senior Member

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    Isn't the 3 stars where a graduate asks if you want to go large on the fries?

    It was the advanced driver training that you can tell your insurers about and get a discount for training :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  13. OP
    Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    To me the story was in the collusion adblue tank sizes were an aside, the cut and thrust of commercial competition seems to have been left at the "restaurant" door.
    Clearly it would be somewhat naive to think this collusion was/is reserved for emissions.
    It may explain the pricing of so many things and their healthy profits.
     
  14. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    I thought that all cake under the heading of German Industrial Policy” ;)
     
  15. OP
    Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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  16. tode

    tode Senior Member

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    On the other hand, if I hand over my cash for a "premium" car, I would prefer that the maker was in good financial health and would still be in operation in ten years' time.

    5% profit isn't wicked . .
     
  17. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    It is to those who think that capitalism is wicked.
     
  18. OP
    Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    5% is what goes on the tax return and is about as accurate a reflection of their financial health as Ebays £1.6 Million.
     
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  19. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    No, it's about correct.
     
  20. OP
    Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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