Dim HIDs W210

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JimM

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Read post #20
Did already, thanks.
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I'm surprised the HiD are so bad as my 210 on H7s is fine (admittedly with Nightbreaker Lasers/Philips Rally Vision bulbs).
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Yes the Ring Ultima H7 +120% on the Jag now are brighter than my current HID bulbs, unexpected.

Info on the web suggests that standard HIDs are about 3 times "brighter" than standard Halogen bulbs.

It may well be another problem, I'll report back when the Lunex are fitted.

Thanks again everyone, much appreciated.
 

Craiglxviii

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Did already, thanks.
.

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Yes the Ring Ultima H7 +120% on the Jag now are brighter than my current HID bulbs, unexpected.

Info on the web suggests that standard HIDs are about 3 times "brighter" than standard Halogen bulbs.

It may well be another problem, I'll report back when the Lunex are fitted.

Thanks again everyone, much appreciated.

OEM HiD lamps @ 2500lm nominal, 3000lm @ Osram Xenarc Nightbreaker.
OEM H7 lamps @ 1500lm nominal, 2000lm @ Osram Nightbreaker Unlimited.

The light output from halogen to HiD is around 70% more, not 300. Those are naked lamp figures by the way not fixture lumens.

Interestingly the Nightbreaker Unlimited and UL Laser have identical luminous flux density figures. Interesting g.
 

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Interestingly the Nightbreaker Unlimited and UL Laser have identical luminous flux density figures. Interesting g.

The Nightbreaker Unlimited are the best bulbs I have used (Xenon excepted), the light spread is excellent and considerably better than the Philips ones I first tried (now in the full beam)
 

LostKiwi

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The Nightbreaker Unlimited are the best bulbs I have used (Xenon excepted), the light spread is excellent and considerably better than the Philips ones I first tried (now in the full beam)

I went the other way preferring the distance from the Philips Rally Visions to the Nightbreaker Lasers!
 
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I'm very happy with the Ring +130%s for light and pattern too.

I've used Philips Xtreme Vision +130%s too in another car, also nice.

Neither of these cause any glare to oncoming cars.

I might try the Racing Vision +150% sometime but their life is short apparently?

Can anyone tell me what are the smaller of the two bulb sizes for the instrument panel please, (it's T5 for the larger ones).

I need to replace those too, they also are quite dim.
 

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The Nightbreaker Unlimited are the best bulbs I have used (Xenon excepted), the light spread is excellent and considerably better than the Philips ones I first tried (now in the full beam)

Bears out the consistent technical evaluation findings top.
 

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I went the other way preferring the distance from the Philips Rally Visions to the Nightbreaker Lasers!

I didn't try the Rally version, just the Xtreme Vision
 

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The Rally Visions are good but the first one blew after 3 months so they do have short life.
Definitely 'whiter' than the Lasers.
I think next time I'll go Philips in the low beam and lasers high.
 
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I went the other way preferring the distance from the Philips Rally Visions to the Nightbreaker Lasers!
Heheheh...

I hope you're in Kiwiland bud, they aren't legal here, offroad only. And out of stock everywhere i found them.

How much brighter are they?

The Philips Racing Vision +150% are the most powerful legal ones here.

...

Craig, I'm really struggling with your brightness figures, I'm really trying to find backup verification on the net but it's not there.

Give me credit, I'm not chipping at you but looking...

Put in "HID 300% brighter than Halogen" in Google and I get pages and pages of links, here are a few:

Amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Low-Xenon-...tDescription_secondary_view_div_1489661566270
Open the whole Description paragraph...
...
"When exposed to high voltage the gas is ignited and produces a beam of light that is 3 times brighter than your regular halogen bulbs."
...

BadBoyClassics
http://www.bbclassics.co.uk/hid-lighting-kits.html

Each one of the 3 kits listed says...
...
"300% Brighter than halogen"
...

XVM Distributing
https://www.xvmdistributing.com/faq

Scroll down to "How do HIDs Differ from Halogens":

...
"The light output*from a 35W (Watt) HID Xenon lamp is 300% more light than an upgraded 55W*halogen bulb."
...

Phoenix bulbs
http://www.phoenixautobulbs.co.uk/tp/hid-xenon-bulb-almost-three-times-brighter-than-halogen-bulbs/

Second sentence...

...
"The light emitted by these Xenon bulbs is almost 300% that of a standard halogen bulb..."
...

There are many more, as you can see for yourself.

Now put in "HID 70% brighter than Halogen".

None say 70% or anything similar. All those links point to bulbs or sites saying 300% or 3 times, or just discussions.

The same applies to your earlier upgrade bulbs interpretation as I said too, I can't find any evidence supporting you anywhere. They all state +120%/+130%/+150% more light or more bright than standard bulbs.

And these statements come from all the manufacturers, Osram, Philips, Ring.

So as a layman I know they would be sued if they lie, and "up to" is a nice get-out.

But I don't want to dismiss your knowledge, I've been controversial several times myself on other truths, so...

Please... Show me some written evidence so that I can see how this lower comparison is derived and understand why.
 
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Craiglxviii

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Osram Xenarc datasheet https://www.osram.com/appsinfo/pdc/...=ZMP_4055062&vid=PP_EUROPE_Europe_eCat&lid=EN

3200lm

Osram Nightbreaker halogen datasheet https://www.osram.com/appsinfo/pdc/pdf.do?cid=GPS01_1090035&vid=EU_ALL_eCat&lid=EN

1870lm (1700 + 10%) as halogens are notoriously underrated due to no ballast.

71% brighter.

Those are direct measured lamp lumen values done by the same manufacturer in the same way (in the same lab on the same kit). Now, a typical HiD D2R lamp will manage 2500lm. Do you seriously believe that a small, sub tier OEM has come out with a form factor replacement product with an output of between 5100- 7500lm (3 x 1700 to 3 x 2500, for a comparison range), using the same metal vapour technology as Osram when the best they can manage is 3200lm?
 
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Osram Xenarc datasheet https://www.osram.com/appsinfo/pdc/...=ZMP_4055062&vid=PP_EUROPE_Europe_eCat&lid=EN

3200lm

Osram Nightbreaker halogen datasheet https://www.osram.com/appsinfo/pdc/pdf.do?cid=GPS01_1090035&vid=EU_ALL_eCat&lid=EN

1870lm (1700 + 10%) as halogens are notoriously underrated due to no ballast.

71% brighter.

Those are direct measured lamp lumen values done by the same manufacturer in the same way (in the same lab on the same kit). Now, a typical HiD D2R lamp will manage 2500lm. Do you seriously believe that a small, sub tier OEM has come out with a form factor replacement product with an output of between 5100- 7500lm (3 x 1700 to 3 x 2500, for a comparison range), using the same metal vapour technology as Osram when the best they can manage is 3200lm?
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Yes I know the lumens ratios are smaller, and it's just a simple calculation.

But the whole subject isn't about lumens and this is where we lose the plot :)

For instance the upgrade bulbs lumens are very similar to standard bulbs and the difference is in filament design, positioning and percentage of xenon gas content.

Clearly lumens don't play any part in the way the manufacturers measure their bulbs against "standard" halogen bulbs, and this is what I'm looking for information on.

I wonder if a photometer would swing wildly between them?

You've misunderstood the "3 times", it's that standard HIDs are typically 3x standard halogen bulb brightness, not 3x other HID bulbs.

I'm not sure if I agree with 3x but yes my old standard halogens were yellow and dim compared to cars with white bright HIDs, and didn't light the road well enough, and yes the Rings are much much whiter and brighter than those.

And I can see the road surface much better and further with the Rings, so the Jag was sorted a couple of years ago.

But my HIDs on my Merkybird... Well... Are pretty unimpressive right now. :)

The Lunex have Landed!

So I just need to find time to fit them. I'd like to do that one at a time so I can assess the visual difference before fitting the second bulb.

We shall see!

Thanks again guys.

Anyone remember the bulb size/type for the small instrument panel bulbs?
 

Craiglxviii

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I'm starting to lose it on this thread a bit now.

What unit of measure exactly do you think the OEMs wonks use to measure light output? The whole subject specifically IS ABOUT LUMENS or rather the lack of their mention in any of the manufacturers you've brought up.

What it of "it's all marketing spiel and it's made up" do you not understand?

I've just given you very clear data on the relative brightness of the two lamp technologies, and I'd have thought that data would pose some questions over the validity of the entirely unitless claims made by your quoted manufacturers.

That data also shows the two market leading HiD and halogen lamps have a 71% difference in luminous flux density. Not 300%. I'd argue that the difference between two leading products from the same manufacturer should be proportionally representative of the rest of the market.

Until a lumens value is given for the lamps you mention their claims are totally, utterly and completely impossible to quantify.

Enjoy.
 
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Marketing can not stray too far from fact for the same manufacturer Craig.

The claims are not from "Dubious David's Lamp Shop, Importers of Light Sources From Bogus Manufacturers in Mongolia"! :)

It's derived from Messieurs Osram's, Philips, and Ring & co's own statements, HID being around 3x "brighter" than "standard" Halogen.

That's not derived from their Lumens.

Their +110%, +120%, +130% claims are relative to their own bulbs too, since they make all 3 "brightnesses".

Look here for their Nightbreakers Plus Limited bulb claims of +90%, which is not their brightest: https://www.osram.com/osram_com/new.../night-breaker-plus-limited-edition/index.jsp

So. Maybe I should talk to Trading Standards ref Osram & Co's lies? :)

Nevertheless, I will report back once the new bulbs are fitted.

Got a very busy weekend coming up.

Talk soon. ;)
 
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Rappey69

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Most of us know claims are very cleverly worded, to mislead you into thinking your buying a wonderfull and superior product..
Look at waterproof watches, but only if they are waterproof to 200m are they suitable for swimming? Now surely water proof means just that? Apparently not,
Synthetic rope - dyneema... Seen it advertised so many time as "15 times stronger than steel" well it is, but only weight for weight, yet everyone seems to leave that part out !
Torches - another hugely misleading load of adverts.
I cant think where i saw it but someone got a whole load of high end torches with fantastic claims of brightess/range and actually tested them by measuring the lumens at certain distances... certainly changed the order that the adverts claimed...
I,m sure if you had a chat to trading standards about the claims of many manufacturers you would find somewhere in the small print would be the "conditions" which in the real world dont work so they can wriggle out of making false claims...
 

Craiglxviii

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Marketing can not stray too far from fact for the same manufacturer Craig.

The claims are not from "Dubious David's Lamp Shop, Importers of Light Sources From Bogus Manufacturers in Mongolia"! :)

It's derived from Messieurs Osram's, Philips, and Ring & co's own statements, HID being around 3x "brighter" than "standard" Halogen.

That's not derived from their Lumens.

Their +110%, +120%, +130% claims are relative to their own bulbs too, since they make all 3 "brightnesses".

Look here for their Nightbreakers Plus Limited bulb claims of +90%, which is not their brightest: https://www.osram.com/osram_com/new.../night-breaker-plus-limited-edition/index.jsp

So. Maybe I should talk to Trading Standards ref Osram & Co's lies? :)

Nevertheless, I will report back once the new bulbs are fitted.

Got a very busy weekend coming up.

Talk soon. ;)

Ive given you ten years of experience plus fact and data. Feel free to ignore it.
 
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Ive given you ten years of experience plus fact and data. Feel free to ignore it.
I don't usually dismiss professional advice without researching a bit Craig.

As I've said, I've tried to get some understanding of how the manufacturers can make these statements.

I understood yours, in fact I was aware of the lumens ratios already, but they don't compare with Osram's claims between bulbs of the same type.

So they must.measure in a different way.

Except if a standard halogen bulb emitting around 1,000 lumens then a 3000lm HID bulb actually IS 3x more "bright".

I cannot accept that a global manufacturer like Osram will state that one of their bulbs puts out +130% more light when in fact it's only +20%.

Chill bud, it's not the first or last! ;)
 

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Part of the discrepancy could be down to the way light is perceived.
For example an HID is typically 5000K and incandescent (Halogen/Xenon) is typically 4000K.
The human eye is more sensitive to light at the yellow point of the spectrum and less sensitive to red and blue ends.
If you have three lights of equal measured intensity where one is red, one yellow and one blue the human eye will perceive the yellow one as being brightest.

Therefore at 5000K the colour of the HiD light is tending away to wards the blue compared to the 4000K of the Halogen/Xenon. This means that although the HiD may be measured as three times bright it may not be perceived as three times brighter.

Additionally the human eye perception of brightness is non-linear and given by the formula perceived brightness= 100 x Square root (measured brightness/100)

In practice this means that if a light source is turned down to 1% of its maximum light output the human eye will perceive it as still at 10% brightness.

So a 3000 lumen light source will not be perceived by the eye to be 3x brighter than a 1000 lumen source.
 

Craiglxviii

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Quite correct LK, that is the peak intensity side of things rearing its head. That 3000lm source will be seen as around 40% brighter by 95% of the global population.

Key to understanding this is how the S.I. Unit of the lumen is defined. One lumen = one candela. steraradian.

Imagine a light source emitting light in a perfect sphere. A star for example. The sphere has radius r. Now, from the centre of that sphere, draw a cone with a base of surface area r^2. That is a steraradian- the S.I. Unit of solid angle.

So one lumen is the luminous flux density that gives one candela from a spherical source through one unit solid angle of that source.

The candela measures luminous intensity and is geared towards 555nm (mid green) or the peak sensitivity of the human eye, as LK pointed out.

The lumen measures quantity of visible light transmitted, weighted towards the same 555nm peak sensitivity, and is thus used for illumination.

There is a key difference between brightness and illumination that many (most) manufacturers leave out.

If a manufacturer does not quote a lumen value anywhere on their datasheet, or (Lunex) doesn't publish any datasheet at all, one should really ask "why".
 
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