Electric Cars

[Craiglxviii]

Most don't drive 500miles a day. But their cars are capable of doing so (some may require a fuel stop but that takes a few minutes to do)

In most elec cars, even with recharge stops it wouldn't be possible without taking considerable time in charging.

I know; the point is that if you look at let's say "typical" usage for A-B segment cars (which is where the current generation of volume EVs are targeted) there is only a small proportion of drivers doing anything more than >50 mile commuting, shopping trips or around-town driving in any one typical day. So for where the cars are aimed at, market-segment and customer-stratum type, cars like the Leaf meet peoples' expectations quite neatly. That is, they're aimed at people who don't need to drive for over 80-100 miles in a go which is a surprisingly large proportion of the driving pool in a typical western European or several Asian countries- Japan, ROK, PRC all either have or are investing heavily in EVs due to their very densely-populated cities and different expectations of vehicle aesthetics/ performance.

Where they don't work is getting into the C-E segment area, motorway cruisers/ tourers etc. Family cars, longer distances, greater expectations of PQ, looks, performance and the like which is where some of the selection bias inherent in most everyone on this site- me included- comes in.

 

[SFTP]

But most people don't drive 500 miles in a day. Most people drive 15-20 miles a day, each way, with 8 hours of work inbetween drives. That's something like 88% of the population for 88% of their trips by the way from the last report I saw.

And the remaining 12% of the journeys by that 88%

And the other 12% full stop which I suspect I fall into. I infrequently use my car but when I use it normally its for 200 mile plus trips to see relatives and for days out. I quite often take my car abroad from Scotland and being able to drive it from Glasgow to Dover without having to fill it, well, it is handy.

Anything other than that is a backward step. I like being able to use a car and not worry about having to fill it.

The drivetrain on a petrogas car at 250k miles will be coming up for major overhaul... clutch linings, DMF will need replacing for sure. Why would you not expect the same level of maintenance on an electric vehicle?

I'd have thought I'd be able to file that under "progress".

 

[SFTP]

Most don't drive 500miles a day. But their cars are capable of doing so (some may require a fuel stop but that takes a few minutes to do)

In most elec cars, even with recharge stops it wouldn't be possible without taking considerable time in charging.

I can fill the Mercedes in under 5 minutes. In that five minutes the car will take on enough fuel to be driven 700 miles. On a long run on a busy day waiting 1hr for a car to recharge for it to manage 200-300 miles. It is a backwards step and one that is intolerable for me.

 

[Craiglxviii]

And the remaining 12% of the journeys by that 88%

And the other 12% full stop which I suspect I fall into. I infrequently use my car but when I use it normally its for 200 mile plus trips to see relatives and for days out. I quite often take my car abroad from Scotland and being able to drive it from Glasgow to Dover without having to fill it, well, it is handy.

Anything other than that is a backward step. I like being able to use a car and not worry about having to fill it.

I'd have thought I'd be able to file that under "progress".

For progress one has to compare apples to apples; right now think where volume-market petrogas powertrains are compared to 40 years ago. 5000 mile service intervals, 30mpg on a 1.4 litre 4 pot petrol NA... and consider that viable EVs are only 10 years old. There's a long way to go, I suspect that we will see oil-filled AC motors coming in at some point. It's how they've licked the longevity problem on submarines and IFEP ships.

I didn't say that the current generation of EVs are perfect either, far from it. But for the people who have them, they either live around the limitations of the technology, or adapt their lifestyle around the car. It's not unusual to see rows upon rows of small, boxy EVs parked up in Tokyo works parking lots all plugged in and charging for instance. The next round, to have 200-250 mile range (so more than double) will address the main issue by binging the EV into typical A-B segment petrogas range. That is, by the way, progress

 

[Noelmc]

Most don't drive 500miles a day. But their cars are capable of doing so (some may require a fuel stop but that takes a few minutes to do)

In most elec cars, even with recharge stops it wouldn't be possible without taking considerable time in charging.

I tend to agree with Craig in that you need to look at what you need the vehicle to achieve rather than its limits. We went through this process and we decided an i3 would be a good choice for our usage. Accepting that we have the CL for longer journeys (only 22mpg, but many more smiles per mile).
If this toe dipping into EV's does go to plan, the CL may get replaced by a Tesla in couple of years time. If I understand correctly the Tesla superchargers are as quick as a wee and a coffee.

 

[Craiglxviii]

I tend to agree with Craig in that you need to look at what you need the vehicle to achieve rather than its limits. We went through this process and we decided an i3 would be a good choice for our usage. Accepting that we have the CL for longer journeys (only 22mpg, but many more smiles per mile).
If this toe dipping into EV's does go to plan, the CL may get replaced by a Tesla in couple of years time. If I understand correctly the Tesla superchargers are as quick as a wee and a coffee.

As with anything that is effectively an entirely new technology or type of product:

It comes out, people use it.
Deficiencies are shown.
People adapt their usage to match performance.
Manufacturers design teams improve performance to match requirements.

That's the whole basis of new product introduction, strategic futuring and product development/ lifecycle maturity.

Smartphones now have around 1/5 of the battery life that mass market mobile phones had 12 years ago, but you don't hear users complaining that they have to charge them every day (well OK, maybe you do if they're iPhones!) nor does it stop people from buying ever more of them.

 

[SFTP]

. The next round, to have 200-250 mile range (so more than double) will address the main issue by binging the EV into typical A-B segment petrogas range. That is, by the way, progress

I suspect a Fiesta/Focus segment car can easily achieve double this on a tank of fuel.

Battery cars are also very sensative to weather conditions and in cold climates do not attain the range that they can in warmer climates. The durability of the battery is also a big problem. Whilst they are improving so are cars with ICE drivetrains. In areas with uneven topography their range plummets too.

By all accounts the performance of a Tesla Model S is breathtaking, but I'd rather it was 2 secs slower to 60 and could do a couple more hundred miles on a charge.

 

[Noelmc]

I have noticed, in the couple of months that we have been researching the i3, and it has been the topic of conversation with friends and colleagues, that people's initial response is one of laughter caused I think by their initial misconceptions of what an EV can do. Once it is explained to them the thought process we have gone through and the logic we have applied, then the second response is more that "I didn't know they could do that". Then the third response, usually at a later date, and sometimes in whispered tones, is "can you just run through that again as it sounds as if it may suit us"

 

[Craiglxviii]

I suspect a Fiesta/Focus segment car can easily achieve double this on a tank of fuel.

Battery cars are also very sensative to weather conditions and in cold climates do not attain the range that they can in warmer climates. The durability of the battery is also a big problem. Whilst they are improving so are cars with ICE drivetrains. In areas with uneven topography their range plummets too.

By all accounts the performance of a Tesla Model S is breathtaking, but I'd rather it was 2 secs slower to 60 and could do a couple more hundred miles on a charge.

OK, but what's your point here? We know what EVs can do, we know that they suit some people and not others. We know that they suit some people for their whole lifestyle and others for "most" or "some" of theirs. For the people who own them, the significantly lower running costs- around 1p/mile and no RFL in this country- make them very attractive to own.

We also know that they can't match the range of heat-engine cars, and that is specifically down to the energy density of the fuel. We also know that this is both being addressed, and only affects a smaller proportion of the market than it has no effect on.

We also know that it won't be a catch-all solution, there will still be a requirement for cars with a longer range than a pure EV will allow. As regards the Tesla's performance, range is a function of energy storage capacity, acceleration is a function of peak grid loading and motor torque, the two are somewhat different. Knocking 2 seconds off the 0-62 time won't affect the battery capacity by much if anything.

Either way, a growing proportion of car buyers disagree with you as the sales of EVs continue to rise.

NB typical B-segment cars have a range of 250 miles. Think Aygo etc. 0.9-1.0 litre 3 pot engines on a 35 litre tank.

 

[SFTP]

I think my point is an electric car is not for me and that I think that electric car makers should prioritise making them more useful (ie go further and get charged quicker) rather than make them faster accelerating than a Maclaren F1.

 

[Noelmc]

I think my point is an electric car is not for me and that I think that electric car makers should prioritise making them more useful (ie go further and get charged quicker) rather than make them faster accelerating than a Maclaren F1.

Agreed an EV is not for everyone.
Regarding range and charge I think that's exactly what the EV and the battery industry are trying to achieve, it's their holy grail, the fast acceleration is a characteristic of using an electric motor.
The problem of fast charging is due to the grid infrastructure, to get all that energy in in a short time you need a heavy supply (I used the word heavy due to my ignorance of the correct term to use). I would guess that all the Tesla supercharger locations would have needed some grid enhancement.
(I once was part of a design team that looked at placing an F1 wind tunnel at Silverstone, the load was such that the grid supply would have needed to be reinforced back to Northampton).

 

[Noelmc]

Thinking laterally for a moment how many cars (petrol or diesel) are chosen on their range? I know from my personal perspective, in the 42 years I have been a car owner, it has never crossed my mind as a reason to either buy or not buy a car. It may be the case that very soon EV's will reach the point where they will sit in the "pack" of all the other vehicles.
Dont get me started on Motorcycle ranges some of them are mindbendingly small, I can remember, in the day, planning my Sunday morning ride around at least one fill up.

 

[Craiglxviii]

I think my point is an electric car is not for me and that I think that electric car makers should prioritise making them more useful (ie go further and get charged quicker) rather than make them faster accelerating than a Maclaren F1.

That's exactly what they are doing. The best-selling EV is the Nissan Leaf, it's a 5 seat family hatchback that is moving from 80-100 mile range (gen 1) to 250ish (gen 2). Toyota are doing the same with their Aygo EV and the Prius is cast in the same mould, they're making volume series production family car EVs that are generally comparable with their petrogas compadres.

It just seems to be that it's the Tesla etc sporty adverts that grabs people's attention

 

[Craiglxviii]

Good points very well-made Noel. And some of those grid reinforcement components are on multi-year lead times too, not a quick job!

 

[Noelmc]

Good points very well-made Noel. And some of those grid reinforcement components are on multi-year lead times too, not a quick job!

The silverstone wind tunnel project never went ahead, however I do remember after the project had been cancelled getting a call from the supply company asking how things were going and asking if the timetable for completion was still the same, there was a stunned silence when I told him it had been cancelled. Oh he said we've ordered the cables for it.............

 

[C350Carl]

I don't chose a car for it's range (even though I currently drive a diseasel).

However most people who own an electric car have it as a second car for the short journey to from work/shops etc.

But not everyone can afford the luxury of two cars. So people have to compromise. So for EV to really take off it has to be something that anyone can use every day. So it needs to charge quickly and have a decent range. The 500miles figure was just a number I plucked out the air as I could do around 900-1000miles to a full tank in mine of all motorway driving and sticking to the speed limits.

Until the manufacturers come up with that holy grail (and hopefully the high density super capacitors will help them realise this) and do it affordably to the masses. Then they will remain a niche product for those that can afford to run two cars. In the UK at least.

I would consider a Tesla S 100PD as an only car. But I wouldn't want to be liable for a battery change at the 8yr point which they reckon will be around £17k!!

 

[oigle]

Even here in Oz, I am considering an electric car as one of two vehicles. Notice I didn't say 2nd car....
We currently have 2 cars - a 2003 ML270 and a 2012 2.5L Nissan Maxima.
The Maxima does most of our daily work and travels up to 80km max on most days - perfect for EV use. The Benz operates as a 2nd car most of the time and has only done 9000km in the last 2 years. It operates as a 2nd car when the other is being used elsewhere. However, it is available and comfortable to use on long trips when an EV would not be suitable. The Maxima does about 15000km per year and the fuel savings on electric would be quite high.
The Nissan Leaf would be quite ideal as a replacement for the Maxima and the new model with extended range would make it better again.
It is quite common in Oz for families to have 2 vehicles - I look down my street in a very normal residential suburb and can't see one house that only has one car!! - so I don't see any real disadvantage in having one of them as an EV.
This is where marketing should be aimed - at 2 car families.

Ian.

 

[Frontstep]

I suppose we could have one.

 

[davemercedes]

I just looked at the "cost comparison" on the Tesla website. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/models

First, like all sales related web sites, the information is carefully slanted in their direction (I'm not implying that the test car ran downhill with a 90-mph wind behind it or anything sinister...) but they'll probably convince those who want to be conviced.

Second, for the Model S the base price car they compare to is around £63K

In this price range they are way outside the possible volume density as mentioned in Carl's comments (my bold characters) i.e.: "Until the manufacturers come up with that holy grail (and hopefully the high density super capacitors will help them realise this) and do it affordably to the masses. Then they will remain a niche product for those that can afford to run two cars. In the UK at least."

But apart from feeling good about doing "one's bit" for the environment (and tbh it does look "okay", I don't see it taking more than niche market volume. If I was going to commit £63K to a car, I don't think I'd be betting on that one, especially with a third year battery mortgage waiting in the wings.

 

[Craiglxviii]

In terms of sales volume, the Leaf sells more worldwide than some of its ICE competitors. This year saw the 250,000th Leaf built since start of production in 2011. But then it's a £17k family hatchback EV and everyone's talking Tesla