General Election...June 8

geraldrobins

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Conservatives got 42.4% of the vote.
This means all the other parties got the remainder of the vote....over 53% = 10% more than the conservatives.
Conservatives got 318 seats
Other parties combined got 332 seats...
Correct. The Conservative won more seats than any other party but not an overall majority.
 

geraldrobins

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I do believe Dave at this stage of the game that the EU are playing with our minds, and hoping that there is a challenge to the Brexit Challenge and maybe we will decide to stay.
Things in some ways are moving in that direction ..eeks ... sorry brexiteers

I do hope so but think it is unlikely.
 

triumphstag

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From day 1 people who voted for Brexit knew and accepted that there would be pain, in my mind and many others that is a price worth paying. Or those that don't accept that, tough that is the price of democracy - I objected to being dragged into a federal European Superstate, but others wanted it.
Presumably those that expect people to compensate for what they feel they have lost since the Brexit vote will be happy to compensate me for the extra taxes I have had to pay to fund the EU over the years.

Brussels and the EU are now showing (even more than before) that they are nothing more of a cartel and a bunch of bullies. Dave's current pet moan of 80,000 jobs (albeit evil bankers who normally should be string up) being forced away by a potential legal ruling is more proof of that - ironically from an organisation that punishes companies that start to build a Monopoly.

Fear of what the future holds and fear of being bullied by Brussels should not be reason to stop Brexit and meekly stay in the EU. Nothing has changed within that dysfunctionality cabal - if anything they have demonstrated their determination to make things worse.

The only point of Dave's that I do agree with is whether our politicians are up to the job.
 

Headhurts

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I could be a lonely man here but I do not mind TM.

She gives me confidence that she would negotiate strongly with the EU and try her hardest to get the best deal she possibly can, why would she not.

I don't believe there is hard and soft Brexit, these are terms used to cause rifts in the negotiations.

The ideal would be to take control of our destiny without paying a bean for it, plainly this is not going to happen so there will be backwards and forwards negotiations until we reach a compromise.

I don't see the harm in threatening to walk away.

If we give the impression that we will accept whatever the EU give us where is their incentive to give much at all?

The media along with quite a few MP's love to cause trouble particularly if they really want to remain in the EU or indeed further their own agenda.

TM has made a few errors of judgement recently and does not come across quite as well as JC.

I'm sure we all know or have met people who are great orators and can hold your attention and come across as believable and trustworthy yet are pretty hopeless at their job I know I have.

JC comes across quite well and I'm sure means well but I believe he seems quite naive at times.

We can only use our own judgement and put our faith in whom we think will serve us best.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Craiglxviii

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I bang on this drum but it is worth repeating. Don't forget the political science model that is at the heart of both the EU as an institution and the people who run it. Liberalism.

Liberalism holds that the most desirable condition is one of order. The root of this is the family. A family with good order (e.g. No arguments) is a strong stable one. This principle is applied to the extended family, local area, and whole country. The point here is that it is the increase of order that is strongly desirable.

By this we can also see that a decrease in order is undesirable. Thus any disagreement (decreased order) between countries is because both of them are deviant in some way as neither want to continue the condition of increased order that previously existed. That means that both countries need to address their deviant nature in order to improve the condition of order between them. The cry of, "Why can't we all get along?" from a Liberalist isn't just a meaningless plea but exposes some very fundamental truth of their nature.

This applies to the EU and UK Brexit negotiations. The EU wish to maintain and/ or increase the state of order it experiences. Removing the UK (and it's economy) increases its disorder. The EU does not understand at a fundamental level why we wish to increase the disorder in the system so are approaching negotiations from the point of view of INCREASING ORDER.

We on the other hand are Realists in the main. Flinty-eyed capitalist imperialists we have been described as and with good reason. We approach a situation with an eye on opportunity. "What's in it for us?" Is what we ask. We did this going into the EEC because what was on offer was a better deal than what we got from the Commonwealth.

This is why the "no deal is better than a bad deal" thing keeps cropping up. To the EU a bad deal is fine as any kind of deal regardless of its contents, by definition improves order as it is a deal. To us, a bad deal is something to be avoided as we would rather seek a good deal.

So forget the whole "punishing us" thing. It's much more a case of taking the first opportunity to increase order in the EU no matter how unpalatable the conditions of that increase of order might be to either party.
 

Frontstep

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I agree there is a mindset that requires order, a sense of belonging "the club" and life cannot exist without it.

The franchise type in business, the lack of courage and confidence to strike out on their own.
As someone who hasn't worked for anyone for decades I recognise the "type".
"Its alright for you" is the most common retort in my family, forgetting we all started from the same place and I have certainly hit more walls and a lot harder than they have.
The majority have to be of this type otherwise our services would not operate and who would I employ ?
The bigger question of who would produce the income for the services to spend gets buried beneath tales of John Lewis type enterprises the history of the company is forgotten in the telling.
Striking out, no big deal for me I always have done, is to some literally jumping into an abyss perhaps we should appreciate we all have a place.
 

Craiglxviii

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Too right. It's deeper than that though. To the EU, having a disagreement over something isn't bad because one side is/ might be wrong, it's bad because the two sides disagree (and thus reduce order) in the first place.

That's quite fundamental and very far reaching. Apply that to their actions and suddenly a lot of odd things they do make sense.
 

davemercedes

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I do believe Dave at this stage of the game that the EU are playing with our minds, and hoping that there is a challenge to the Brexit Challenge and maybe we will decide to stay.
Things in some ways are moving in that direction ..eeks ... sorry brexiteers
It may well be a mind game but Mayhem was trying to do just that by trying to dictate how the meeting should be run (first rule of aggressive meetings: take over the running!) but due to her arrogance with them and challenging comments like "no deal is better" and "I'll be a ****** awkward woman" there was no way they were going to give an inch. The EU also want to put UK on the back foot - they will be hitting us with a divorce bill around £60Bn and that will take at least four weeks to end up at an impasse. Anyway, by Tuesday Mayhem will be doing another U-turn so stand by to hear that it's the best way to start...
- Funny, Farage, Boris et al never painted severance costs on a big red bus, did they?
 
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Frontstep

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The much maligned Farage had the measure of the Eurocrats they disliked him for good reason he is a talent overlooked because of the ego's he shattered.
Would I have him on my team a 1000% yes.
 

davemercedes

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The much maligned Farage had the measure of the Eurocrats they disliked him for good reason he had the measure of them he is a talent overlooked because of the ego's he shattered.
Would I have him on my team a 1000% yes.
He could clean my lavatories.
 

Craiglxviii

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The thing is, here no deal really IS better than a bad deal. Why on earth would you enter into a known bad deal in business? You'd walk away and look elsewhere. Same here.
 

davemercedes

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The thing is, here no deal really IS better than a bad deal. Why on earth would you enter into a known bad deal in business? You'd walk away and look elsewhere. Same here.
Of course it is, Craig but in any business (and she represents Great Britain plc) you approach every meeting - especially "unfriendly" ones with the best strategy and opening/pre-meeting comments you can. Putting your adversary's hackle up (and you never know they might really have wanted as amicable a settlement as possible) before you even agree the agenda is really not a very clever idea. In fact it's as stupid and crass as the "I want a red, white and blue Brexit" rubbish. If she wanted to play the warning game she has enough media connections to engineer an interview in UK when she could have answered a question like that i.e.: making clear that she would not be pushed around.

- Instead, from day-one she tried to push them around - all 27 of them
- and the Brexquitters here retorted in the normal "they need us more" manner... which unfortunately, they don't.
- I tell you now, we will get what she is given unless we get rid NOW and substitute a negotiator.

I shudder to think what the results will be. Last week I posted about the 80,000 jobs at risk in Euro clearing... hopefully it won't happen in the end but that's 80,000 families at risk from just one EU activity.
- Let's ask Saint Farage to go and negotiate a settlement for that one, eh?
 

Craiglxviii

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As far as putting one's opponents hackles up, why not? This is Trump's SOP and it's worked for him so far. It's also a standard procedure in any business meeting where there are potentially violently disagreeing positions taken. Strike a completely unreasonable primary position, make it known publically that is your opening position well in advance. What your real position is kept a very closely guarded secret. Then go into the meeting with your opponents expecting that unreasonable position or worse. When you begin negotiations there is an automatic safety zone built in on your side that you can fall back into.

Red, white and blue crassness is as much for public consumption as half the bollocks that Juncker et al have put out.
 

davidsl500

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The golden rule is always get the first punch in ! No deal is far better than a bad deal. I can't see why some people don't see that as a good negotiating position. Whether they need us more than we need them is an interesting point. It's pretty certain that high tariffs on vehicles coming in to the UK would decimate the German Car industry for one. I wonder how much lobbying is going on behind the scenes from the likes of BMW, Mercedes and VW?
 

davemercedes

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Sorry - there are some absolute ridiculous sphericals above or maybe you people commenting have never had to really negotiate - and certainly not from a minority with a majority! If Mayhem goes in fighting she will find out that Barnier is a ****** awkward man (touche!) and she'll kill us all off. It may be necessary to (try to) get heated at some point later but certainly not in the beginning.

The golden rule is to come home with a satisfactory solution - not have a fight! You achieve that by showing the opposite side that you bear no ill will and want to reach an amicable solution - kicking them in the jewels as you/before you even walk in will only get you a harder kick back especially when there are 26 more of them than you! Mayhem's done enough of that by proxy already.

Look at the views of UK big business leaders - the ones who keep most people in work (and don't lose it by confrontation!)
- But what do they know, there's only a bank CEO, the head of EU negotiations at Confederation of British Industry (CBI), and the odd billionaire among them!

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-business-idUKKBN1971JT?il=0
'Create goodwill', business leaders urge May in Brexit talks
..."Create the goodwill and certainty on things that are going to be done anyway"
 

Craiglxviii

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Dave,

Not sure about others but I spent the first 18 years of my career negotiating. I even have qualifications in it.
 

davemercedes

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Well if you approached it like these suggestions, I'm surprised you are employed. Personally, I just either got told to "go and sort it out" or had just had to do it off my own bat. There are times for tough talking and even threats but the time is emphatically not before you've even started the process.
 

AMGeed

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Sorry - there are some absolute ridiculous sphericals above or maybe you people commenting have never had to really negotiate - and certainly not from a minority with a majority! If Mayhem goes in fighting she will find out that Barnier is a ****** awkward man (touche!) and she'll kill us all off. It may be necessary to (try to) get heated at some point later but certainly not in the beginning.

The golden rule is to come home with a satisfactory solution - not have a fight! You achieve that by showing the opposite side that you bear no ill will and want to reach an amicable solution - kicking them in the jewels as you/before you even walk in will only get you a harder kick back especially when there are 26 more of them than you! Mayhem's done enough of that by proxy already.

Look at the views of UK big business leaders - the ones who keep most people in work (and don't lose it by confrontation!)
- But what do they know, there's only a bank CEO, the head of EU negotiations at Confederation of British Industry (CBI), and the odd billionaire among them!

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-business-idUKKBN1971JT?il=0
'Create goodwill', business leaders urge May in Brexit talks
..."Create the goodwill and certainty on things that are going to be done anyway"

Perhaps you'd rather have Corbyn lead the negotiations? It would all be over in a day as he'll give the EU exactly what they want.
At least May is prepared to play hardball and walk away if the deal is no good. Corbyn isn't bothered about UK finances when he was about to set the borrowing wheel rolling again had he got in.
 

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