General Election...June 8

Craiglxviii

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The flip side of somewhat made up jobs is that at least they are being made to do something for their dole money.

Trouble is, it's not something tangible one can point at and say, "Those dole wallahs built that today!"

For example. The US in the Great Depression instituted the WPA- Works Projects Administration. Government funded, it built most of the great hydro electric dams, most of Middle America's small-town squares, most local public libraries, it was involved in everything from women sewing up patchwork quilts to be distributed to the needy (from clothing scraps donated by the public) to Federal and State Highways. The WPA paid a living wage, gave 3 square meals a day and employed for no more than 3 days straight without having to reapply. It is what built the American infrastructure that allowed them to springboard up in the 40s and 50s.

Now, imagine that on a limited scale here. Potholes too costly to fix? Employ a WPA crew. Hell employ 20. They're already being paid for, this gives them something to do.

The point with WPA was that almost everyone was found some sort of gainful employment... and it was all productive, even if the production was just ("just"...) running mobile kitchens for the road resurfacing crews.

Be honest, who here can't think of 3 or 4 unskilled or semi skilled labour element jobs around their local area that would improve things no end, if the labour resource was just available?

The plus side is that in addition to the infrastructure improvements (M1 between Rugby & Northampton eh?) the extra living wage paid to such benefits claimants would all get rolled back into the local economies anyway, giving greater stimulus.
 

Craiglxviii

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Ironically, a vote for the Green Party would be a waste of paper.

That's the same Green Party who believe in "diplomatic" solutions to armed conflict :)
 

Xtractorfan

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Trouble is, it's not something tangible one can point at and say, "Those dole wallahs built that today!"

For example. The US in the Great Depression instituted the WPA- Works Projects Administration. Government funded, it built most of the great hydro electric dams, most of Middle America's small-town squares, most local public libraries, it was involved in everything from women sewing up patchwork quilts to be distributed to the needy (from clothing scraps donated by the public) to Federal and State Highways. The WPA paid a living wage, gave 3 square meals a day and employed for no more than 3 days straight without having to reapply. It is what built the American infrastructure that allowed them to springboard up in the 40s and 50s.

Now, imagine that on a limited scale here. Potholes too costly to fix? Employ a WPA crew. Hell employ 20. They're already being paid for, this gives them something to do.

The point with WPA was that almost everyone was found some sort of gainful employment... and it was all productive, even if the production was just ("just"...) running mobile kitchens for the road resurfacing crews.

Be honest, who here can't think of 3 or 4 unskilled or semi skilled labour element jobs around their local area that would improve things no end, if the labour resource was just available?

The plus side is that in addition to the infrastructure improvements (M1 between Rugby & Northampton eh?) the extra living wage paid to such benefits claimants would all get rolled back into the local economies anyway, giving greater stimulus.
You are absolutely serious about paying people peanuts and giving them 3 square meals a day so that they can fill potholes so that you and all other motorists can drive safely on our roads...Even the Tories would disown you. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be soo small minded that they would even consider such a draconian way of making people work for their survival.
Now if you had said you would give up your well paid job and get a few more volunteers and do this, then I would have applauded your meaningful resolve to do some good for fellow motorists.
 

M80

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You are absolutely serious about paying people peanuts and giving them 3 square meals a day so that they can fill potholes so that you and all other motorists can drive safely on our roads...Even the Tories would disown you. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be soo small minded that they would even consider such a draconian way of making people work for their survival.
Now if you had said you would give up your well paid job and get a few more volunteers and do this, then I would have applauded your meaningful resolve to do some good for fellow motorists.

You take a suggestion of giving the unemployed something they might take pride in and apply the sort of political correctness that attempts to prevent suggestions that might well improve society generally.

What can be wrong with persons giving up some of their otherwise non productive time to return something to society that is already trying to prevent their general decline?

I don't see that such an exercise need be soul destroying, with the right attitude it could be more soul lifting. I see too many 1st hand that have too much time to attend patronising classes to teach them to write a letter of application, too much time to be told to apply for crap jobs advertised at the job centre that are no longer available. Other than this it's daytime telly supping cheap cider living in isolation from the outside world.
Give 'em something to look forward to, most want that.
 

Yugguy

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You are absolutely serious about paying people peanuts and giving them 3 square meals a day so that they can fill potholes so that you and all other motorists can drive safely on our roads...Even the Tories would disown you. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be soo small minded that they would even consider such a draconian way of making people work for their survival.
Now if you had said you would give up your well paid job and get a few more volunteers and do this, then I would have applauded your meaningful resolve to do some good for fellow motorists.


Way back in the early 90s when I was a student I did not want to live purely off the state. During holidays, and some weekends, I worked. I would do anything. Bin man, unload container lorries, farm work,put up stadium seating, i even spent a week taking water samples from a new treatment works, which was fascinating.

The point is as well as the money it gave me some pride and some self worth, AND kept me in the frame of mind of getting up and going to work.

After uni I didn't get a job in IT for 6 months. I didn't sign on, I worked as an attendant at the library and museum in Preston.

There is nothing wrong with work. What do you think is better for someone's state of mind, slobbing in front of Jeremy Kyle or doing something useful?
 

JBell

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Way back in the early 90s when I was a student I did not want to live purely off the state. During holidays, and some weekends, I worked.

I have worked continuously since I was 15, all through college and uni to pay my way.

I see nothing wrong with getting people on benefits to do something productive at all, we "pay" them to do nothing so why not "pay" them to do something
 

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You are absolutely serious about paying people peanuts and giving them 3 square meals a day so that they can fill potholes so that you and all other motorists can drive safely on our roads...Even the Tories would disown you. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be soo small minded that they would even consider such a draconian way of making people work for their survival.
Now if you had said you would give up your well paid job and get a few more volunteers and do this, then I would have applauded your meaningful resolve to do some good for fellow motorists.


There is a moral side to this and funding indolence is a corrupt indulgence.

I have offered "work" to people that was more about a hand up and to get them to see it as a lifestyle change, a stepping stone not a career.

Many of the unemployed need to prove themselves as their records are poor and in a competitive job market you have to sell yourself to an employer.

Labour in their infinite wisdom left these people on their sofas and imported millions of hungry people from across the world to make their lives even more dead end.

Candidate A.

Got up 11.00am ish, watched tv let dog out into unkempt garden and started the daily routine of sofa tv and junk food.

Candidate B. Gets up 7.30 am works hard boss likes them, joins in good team player .

You employ A if you like......................................
 

Yugguy

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Indeed - and I am not against benefits. After a levels I needed a rest from education, I wasnt ready to go straight to Uni. I got a job driving a van but only after a few months. In those months I signed-on but I was looking for work.

I don't see it as unreasonable to ask someone to do some work for their benefits, especially if this was local community work that helped everyone.

Frontstep that's why I got my job at the Harris in preston - I was willing to do 7am-7pm and I just got on with it. I'm nothing special but I believe in if there's a job needs doing get on and do it.
 

Craiglxviii

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You are absolutely serious about paying people peanuts and giving them 3 square meals a day so that they can fill potholes so that you and all other motorists can drive safely on our roads...Even the Tories would disown you. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be soo small minded that they would even consider such a draconian way of making people work for their survival.
Now if you had said you would give up your well paid job and get a few more volunteers and do this, then I would have applauded your meaningful resolve to do some good for fellow motorists.

It is astonishing that someone with apparent intelligence could ignore everything except one small point, and then make an issue out of it. PRWales you clearly are.

The point is that THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED. The Americans ACTUALLY DID THIS. It ACTUALLY WORKED VERY WELL. I am taking a historical example and modifying it to a modern situation. Let me reiterate.

People are drawing unemployment benefits because they cannot find a job, for whatever reason (the original situation in 1928 America). The WPA concept then paid, on top of that, a living wage- for example, minimum wage- plus food & accommodation whilst working, for no more than 3 days consecutive work per application of job. That job was anything from heavyside civil engineering to quilt-making to cooking, the point being that it was all productive and not make-work. Once the 3 days' work had finished the workforce could then reapply for that job or move onto another one, or go home.

The actual proven benefits of this system were that:

For the workforce- it mobilized a significant workforce element that was either ineligible for work or unable to find work in any other sector (private industry, civil service, armed forces); it housed, fed and paid out money to that workforce that allowed them to support their families to a much greater extent than their benefits would otherwise allow.
For the government- it mobilized a significant workforce that was otherwise inaccessible; it allowed that workforce to be mobilized cheaply in comparison to doing productive employment through other private industry (the WPA didn't need to make a profit as it didn't have shareholders); the workforce was mutually self-supporting so could be deployed en masse to a particular area or project; the workforce was voluntary and on rolling contract so those that turned up actually wanted to do the work and were incentivized to do so; the work it did was designed by the government to fulfill known requirements.

I'll say it again, the WPA effectively built throughout the 30s what we would recognize today as the centres of most Middle American towns, the courthouses, public buildings, their A-road network, the chain of large H-E dams that provided cheap power generation which kickstarted their industrialised economic recovery in the mid 30s... I could go on. And it did all of that pretty much breaking even.

So, I'll ask again, what are the drawbacks of this? Vote loser? Does it go against your delicate snowflake PC nature, putting people to work?
 

Craiglxviii

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I have worked continuously since I was 15, all through college and uni to pay my way.

I see nothing wrong with getting people on benefits to do something productive at all, we "pay" them to do nothing so why not "pay" them to do something

Me too. Store assistant at 15-16, odd jobs through my A Levels, behind a bar from 17-21 to pay my way through uni, I've worked ever since I've really been able to. I spent 3 months out of work in 2007-8 in the recession, drawing jobseekers allowance and hated every second of it. The most unpleasant experience of my life, and I'm including business trips to Wolverhampton in that.
 

Alfie

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I can't see this election being as clear cut as some think. Remember, the Brexit vote was very close and there are many remainers who would normally vote Conservative who might find it hard to do so, thus giving the PM almost carte blanche to negotiate as she sees fit. Interresting to see how this plays out :)

Yes but the thought of Corbyn and an ultra lefty government is far far worse than voting against their traditional intentions just to try and up-end Brexit.

I wouldnt be at all surprised to see traditional Labour voters swing towards the LibDems and they end up being the opposition. Whatever happens, without Scotland, Labour were finished and now with Corbyn in the mix too, mutiny in the party (no confidence vote), statements about returning union powers (to their paymaster McCluskey et al), saying they support Trident but would never ever use it under any circumstances etc etc etc they really have lost the plot big time.
 

M80

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I can't see issue with the unemployed, who are already receiving benefits, gaining extra credits for their efforts to assist in municipal / social development programmes.

Any efforts that go toward a better environment for all has to be good.

If all of us were to pick up a bit of rubbish in the street (let's assume the wind put it there). If we were to do a cuppa in a local care home for the elderly, tend the garden for someone not capable, the world becomes a better place.
Maybe I should put my money where my keyboard comments are.
 

triumphstag

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Me too. Store assistant at 15-16, odd jobs through my A Levels, behind a bar from 17-21 to pay my way through uni, I've worked ever since I've really been able to. I spent 3 months out of work in 2007-8 in the recession, drawing jobseekers allowance and hated every second of it. The most unpleasant experience of my life, and I'm including business trips to Wolverhampton in that.
Same here. Supermarkets mainly.

I always thought that the benefits system was supposed to be a safety net, providing the bare minimum to survive. Benefits should not provide a comfortable lifestyle (I am not talking about the disabled or genuinely unable to work).
Unfortunately benefits have got better and for some can provide a comfortable lifestyle choice (flat screen Tv's, mobiles and trainers) meanwhile it has been possible to import oodles of cheap/unskilled labour to do the work that the people on benefits should be doing. Hopefully with Brexit, the cheap labour supply will dry up and the lifestyle benefits approach will be addressed.

Absolutely agree with the idea of a work for your benefits system, even if it is just picking up litter.
 

Alfie

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Some years ago I advertised for a trainee computer operator. I received a number of applications and shortlisted a few. Interviews were held. One candidate arrived a little late but I was prepared to overlook that. During the interview I asked him why he had applied for the position. His reply pretty much ended the interview. He said 'I was told to by the benefits office otherwise I would lose my benefits' This was single mid twenties person. So I asked him 'Do you want the job?'. His reply 'no, im just here so they dont cut my benefits'. Well, they did cut his benefits because I offered him the job and he turned it down which didnt surprise me in the slightest. Sadly his attitude is not uncommon amongst a number of the younger unemployed/unemployable people. When I were a lad you went out and got a job, any job you could.
 

LostKiwi

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From age 14 through 18 I used to do a milk round pushing a cart like this:
fff5b4b4fb3d5e3590c437af477079c8.jpg

Our carts were 3 long by one wide (not 2x2 like this) and we used to stack the crates 2 high at the front and three high in the middle and rear positions. A typical night would see us run about 3-4 miles pushing the cart. I often worked 10 or 12 days back to back for the money. It was hard work but very rewarding (not financially unfortunately) at the same time.
 

Craiglxviii

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Some years ago I advertised for a trainee computer operator. I received a number of applications and shortlisted a few. Interviews were held. One candidate arrived a little late but I was prepared to overlook that. During the interview I asked him why he had applied for the position. His reply pretty much ended the interview. He said 'I was told to by the benefits office otherwise I would lose my benefits' This was single mid twenties person. So I asked him 'Do you want the job?'. His reply 'no, im just here so they dont cut my benefits'. Well, they did cut his benefits because I offered him the job and he turned it down which didnt surprise me in the slightest. Sadly his attitude is not uncommon amongst a number of the younger unemployed/unemployable people. When I were a lad you went out and got a job, any job you could.

I advertised for an Assistant Buyer in my last job. £22k I think it was on so not peanuts; decent career progression in what was (ha! So we all thought) a well founded company. I had 5 applicants. By far and away the best was a very pretty young girl who turned down the job offer because, "It means I have to talk to people on the phone." That totally blew me away, as a starting job I'd have bitten someone's arm off for it when I was 21-22. Quite astonishing, the attitude of some people.
 

Craiglxviii

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Yes but the thought of Corbyn and an ultra lefty government is far far worse than voting against their traditional intentions just to try and up-end Brexit.

I wouldnt be at all surprised to see traditional Labour voters swing towards the LibDems and they end up being the opposition. Whatever happens, without Scotland, Labour were finished and now with Corbyn in the mix too, mutiny in the party (no confidence vote), statements about returning union powers (to their paymaster McCluskey et al), saying they support Trident but would never ever use it under any circumstances etc etc etc they really have lost the plot big time.

From the numbers I've seen, it looks likely that the Conservatives will increase their majority, Labour will see some unpleasant cuts and the Limp Damps potentially stand to gain enough Labour revenge voters to get back into the "Kingmaker" position they lost quite some time back.
 

Yugguy

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meanwhile it has been possible to import oodles of cheap/unskilled labour to do the work that the people on benefits should be doing. Hopefully with Brexit, the cheap labour supply will dry up and the lifestyle benefits approach will be addressed.

Absolutely agree with the idea of a work for your benefits system, even if it is just picking up litter.

Well interestingly, back in the early 90s I got all my temp work through an agency called Kinetic. There were loads of these agencies, loads of jobs and loads of us there to do them - quite often we'd be chasing the jobs, rather than the jobs chasing us.

We didn't have the influx of Eastern Europeans (and NO, this is NOT an attack on those people) but we didn't need them.

The work is there for people WILLING to do it.
 

triumphstag

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Well interestingly, back in the early 90s I got all my temp work through an agency called Kinetic. There were loads of these agencies, loads of jobs and loads of us there to do them - quite often we'd be chasing the jobs, rather than the jobs chasing us.

We didn't have the influx of Eastern Europeans (and NO, this is NOT an attack on those people) but we didn't need them.

The work is there for people WILLING to do it.
And that's the problem. There are people willing to do all the work on offer, and the economy has (generally) been doing well, so the armchair generation have been left to their own device to some extent. Whilst there are a undoubtedly the slackers who want to mooch their life away, there are also those on benefits (I know a few) that really want jobs but can't get them. Ideas like the one Craig was discussing would sort out the moochers and give those who can't get jobs some self respect back.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

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So to sum up Jeremy is going on a work scheme.
 

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