Improve 'exhaust note' on my 2010 E500 A207

harrye500

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
557
Reaction score
457
Location
Cheshire
Your Mercedes
2017 W213 OM654 E220 Estate (the main driver) and 2010 A207 E500 (now 'the Summer Car')
Hello to all. Appreciate a bit of advice from more experianced folk! Now I'm no expert on exhausts, so I hope there might be some general thoughts or advice out there on how to improve the sound to give it a more 'gruff', louder note.

I've had my E since December and that's long enough to know I will be keeping it for a long time. It is a super car.

But, it has a disappointing exhaust note from what is a pretty sweet sounding engine generally. Is there anything I can do to 'upgrade' the sound without replacing the entire system? Not replacing is nothing to do with cost (appreciate that no Mercedes upgrade or part is cheap), but the exhaust is perfectly good, just a bit 'muffled' and underwhelming so changing it seems a bit overkill to me.

I've heard a (I think it was an E63) cornering / passing me, lets say 'at speed' and he left a very satisfying V8 burble as he went by! So from that, I'd say I'd be happy with a std / 'stock' sound such as the 63, nothing too outrageous (+ I am 43 all said and done so no hot hatch kid)!! Not too fussed about increasing BHP or Torque (though wouldn't want to loose any torque if it can be helped), I think 388BHP is quite enough for most!

I'm looking at upgrade / improvement options first, without venturing too much into custom Stainless territory at this point, where I gather its a whole other ball game!

Generally though I'm learning about the car and its 'general little issues' so hope to contribute in the future. Up to now, major work includes changing the Transmission Fluid (yes, including Torque Converter)! Took all day (with dad of course who is familiar with 7G Tronic)! He made me do all the work though 'to learn' was his opinion on the matter! What a difference in performance and gear change though. I have all the required kit to do it again of course (one day, but please not too soon as its a real precision back breaker)!!

Any advice on the exhaust would be very welcome.

Thanks, Andy
 

Steve@Avantgarde

Forum Supporter
Authorised Forum Supporter
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
7,314
Reaction score
1,955
Location
Bristol/Somerset
Website
www.avantgarde-automotive.co.uk
Your Mercedes
E300 Coupe AMG Line PP/NE, SLR McLaren Roadster, SL55 & C32AMG
I would seek a CKS Performance exhaust. I fitted one to an SLK recently and was very impressed at the quality of fit and note of the exhaust.
 

television

Always remembered RIP
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
164,073
Reaction score
367
Age
89
Location
Daventry
Your Mercedes
2002 SL500, 216 CL500, all fully loaded
Is the CLS the one in Watford, I do not like them, must be choices
 

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
9,030
Reaction score
7,007
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
S204 C180K
Is the CLS the one in Watford, I do not like them, must be choices

Yes, the same CKS with very poor customer service and overcharging for parts. I wouldn't entertain them.

To the OP, unfortunately you will not get your car to sound like an E63 unless you bolt on the whole exhaust system.
I have a 55k and even removing the secondary cats and resonator, it still isn't as vocal as an E63. They have different back boxes which are far less restrictive than either the E55 or E500.

I'd suggest you do the same as me and either remove or gut the secondary cats, remove the resonator and fit in a x-pipe.
It won't sound as good as an E63 but it will be louder "on" throttle without droning or being overly loud.
 

John Laidlaw

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
26,373
Reaction score
9,163
Location
Wirral
Your Mercedes
Land Rover Discovery 4
Harry - welcome !
Ok as AMGeed has said you won't get the full E63 sound without an E63..
However he's on the money with his suggestion -
My previous car was an SL500 with the same engine- in my case I felt the same - nice V8 didn't sound like a V8!
I went to Cybox here in Bromborough and had them strip out the back boxes and fit larger straight through pipes - keeping the original tips so I didn't have to mess around with the bodywork...
Nett result was a nice deep V8 throb , ok not AMG but nice and additionally was able to get a nice pop from the exhausts with over run. Cost about £300
I'd recommend that route
 

Submariner1

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2016
Messages
4,686
Reaction score
785
Location
Windsor Berkshire
Your Mercedes
CL500 2009 5.5
As I guess you have a 5.5L engine like mine??
There is a proper AMG rear box set, about £1,100 thatnwill give you the deep AMG CL63 growl ( almost, well Imsay almost as its been compensated for ... but you can never equal the real thing.

This was tuned for the engine, proper scavenging, no loss of low end torque ... which is a common failure of most "hacks".

IMO very few "exhaust" companys in the UK have a clue. Backpressure is crucial to the correct suction of burnt gasses. AMG spent a fortune reseseaching it will exceedingly expensive kit.
Mess with it at your peril ... sure louder but probably less low end torque! At worst burnt valves. :(:(:(

This kit is the only one that will deliver the perfect sound but wont harm the engine or its power output. Or invalidate MB warranty etc.

See
https://www.kunzmann.de/shop/de/fah...m?udef[orderby]=relevanz+DESC&sub=297&caid=90

Hopefully they do one for your car.

All you do is cut off the rear boxes and bolt these one there is even a procedure defined in WIS for how to do it.
The snag is you need the AMG rear skirt .. and in my case thats circa £1000.
For me thats £2,100 which I feel is better spent saving for a CL63 :):):)
Sorted ... plus plus plus :):):)
 

LostKiwi

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
31,324
Reaction score
21,574
Location
Midlands / Charente-Maritime
Your Mercedes
'93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240 (RIP), 02 R230 SL500, 04 Smart Roadster Coupe, 11 R350CDi
Sub... let's get something clear. Backpressure is not required nor is it desirable in any 4 stroke exhaust system. What is required and desirable is scavenging. The purpose of any exhaust system is to remove burnt gases as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Backpressure prevents the complete emptying of the cylinder hence reduces the amount of fuel and air required to get maximum torque and power on the following induction stroke.
In most cases scavenging occurs as a result of the bernoulli effect. This is exactly the same principle a non-gravity fed spray gun uses. You can test it yourself with a straw and a glass of water. Put the straw in the water with the top in atmosphere. Blow across the end of the straw and you should see the liquid rise up the straw.
In an exhaust system the pulse of gas passing the open end of one primary pipe in the manifold creates a partial vacuum in the other pipes in the collector aiding the clearing of exhaust gases from the next cylinder to fire (on that bank).
Gas has momentum and inertia and is subject to boundary effects as it passes down a pipe. The bigger the pipe the greater the surface area the pulse of gas encounters and the more drag it is subjected to, hence the greater the loss of momentum. Conversely the smaller the pipe the greater the pressure at the exhaust valve and the less ability of the cylinder to expel all the exhaust gas. It is clear the diameter of pipe chosen must maximise flow but minimise surface area of the walls.
On a 4cylinder engine a 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust gives a broader torque peak than a 4 into 1 system but the 4 into 1 gives a higher peak torque. The reason for this is that in a 4-2-1 system some of the energy of the outgoing pulse is lost at each transition so is less effective at the final collector.
This is why tuned (equal) length primary and secondary pipes coupled to correctly sized main pipes and (for V8s) correctly located H or X pipes leading into properly sized and configured silencers is important.
A common mistake boy racers make is to go too large on the exhaust size, which reduces the gas velocity and reduces torque. This applies to any part of the system (including tail pipe).
When I had access to an engine dyno we did a lot of testing of race engines and exhaust configurations. The best tailpipe configuration we found was the traditional megaphone - a pipe that progressively increased in diameter over 3 feet of its length. It did have the significant drawback of being extremely loud!
Every exhaust is a compromise in that what works at 2000rpm may not work at 5000rpm (and vice versa).

Cruciform V8s (where the 4 throws of the crankshaft are at 90 degrees to one another) suffer an additional complication. The effective firing sequence of the banks goes LRRLRLLR. You can see there is a double pulse per bank in any complete firing sequence. This is where the characteristic rumble of a V8 comes from. The H pipe or X pipe seeks to use the energy in the double pulse to benefit the opposite bank in the same way the pulse of gas at the collector of each individual bank benefits the next cylinder to fire. There have been exhausts designed to overcome the double pulse effect in each bank and these have a very different sound. The Ford GT40 is a classic example. In general its not practical to do this as the exhaust system becomes very complex and requires a lot of space as two exhaust primaries per bank need to cross under (or over or around) the engine to the opposite bank.

On a modern ECU controlled engine you would need to seriously screw up you exhaust design to burn valves. That can only happen if EGTs getting too high and that can only happen with too much back pressure (allowing hot exhaust gases to linger at the exhaust valve) screwed mixtures (not possible when the engine is running closed loop) or poor timing. That said to get the best from any exhaust modifications the engine should be retuned to take advantage of the improved scavenging.

So... provided any exhaust modification does not decrease scavenging (for example increasing pipe diameter too much or introducing flow resistance through silencer internal design) there should be no negative impact on torque.

There are plenty of aftermarket exhaust manufacturers who know their stuff and design quality silencers (some are even better than AMG ones). To say only AMG get it right is simply not true.
 
Last edited:

Craiglxviii

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
17,781
Reaction score
7,426
Location
Cambs UK
Your Mercedes
970 Panamera Turbo; W221 S500L AMG Line, C215 CL500, W251 R350L AMG Line, plus several more now gone
Top quality as per LK.
 

LostKiwi

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
31,324
Reaction score
21,574
Location
Midlands / Charente-Maritime
Your Mercedes
'93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240 (RIP), 02 R230 SL500, 04 Smart Roadster Coupe, 11 R350CDi
Great shot showing GT40 exhaust - notice the way two pipes from each bank cross to the opposite collector:
GT40%20c66.jpg
 

LostKiwi

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
31,324
Reaction score
21,574
Location
Midlands / Charente-Maritime
Your Mercedes
'93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240 (RIP), 02 R230 SL500, 04 Smart Roadster Coupe, 11 R350CDi
Just to add to my previous post about backpressure:
On a 2 stroke engine we find backpressure is desirable.
A good 2 stroke exhaust is a very complex thing to design - far more so than a 4 stroke.
With the two stroke engine we have a situation where the exhaust port is still open as the piston starts to move upwards. As this movement compresses the gases we've just allowed into the cylinder trough the inlet port on the opposite side of the cylinder some of that unburnt fuel and air is lost directly into the exhaust. Careful design of the exhaust allows a some of the exhaust gases to be reflected back to the port as a pressure wave ideally timed to reach the port just before the piston begins its upward travel, thus preventing fresh inlet air and fuel being being allowed to exit the port. Note this is a single cylinder effect and does not rely on adjacent cylinders to provide any benefit.
Scavenging at the port of a two stroke is therefore highly undesirable except during the portion of time the piston is moving downwards. This is why two stroke engines have a distinctive shape known as an expansion chamber. The first part of the chamber allows scavenging as the gases expand into the megaphone (see previous post) and then the reverse megaphone section creates a pressure wave back (effectively back pressure) preventing unburnt fuel and air being pushed out of the cylinder.
 

bembo449

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
6,774
Reaction score
3,518
Location
gainsborough , lincolnshire
Your Mercedes
Mercedes Cl500, shitron dispatch
some will know how I extracted a proper V8 soundtrack from my CL500 with the 5.5v8 , it was simple enough if you can weld , only extra's I needed was some stainless baffled pipe which I got off ebay , car sounds incredible now and no drone , best of all it still looks factory as I modded the original rear cans
 

Submariner1

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2016
Messages
4,686
Reaction score
785
Location
Windsor Berkshire
Your Mercedes
CL500 2009 5.5
Sub... let's get something clear. Backpressure is not required nor is it desirable in any 4 stroke exhaust system. What is required and desirable is scavenging. The purpose of any exhaust system is to remove burnt gases as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Backpressure prevents the complete emptying of the cylinder hence reduces the amount of fuel and air required to get maximum torque and power on the following induction stroke.
In most cases scavenging occurs as a result of the bernoulli effect. This is exactly the same principle a non-gravity fed spray gun uses. You can test it yourself with a straw and a glass of water. Put the straw in the water with the top in atmosphere. Blow across the end of the straw and you should see the liquid rise up the straw.
In an exhaust system the pulse of gas passing the open end of one primary pipe in the manifold creates a partial vacuum in the other pipes in the collector aiding the clearing of exhaust gases from the next cylinder to fire (on that bank).
Gas has momentum and inertia and is subject to boundary effects as it passes down a pipe. The bigger the pipe the greater the surface area the pulse of gas encounters and the more drag it is subjected to, hence the greater the loss of momentum. Conversely the smaller the pipe the greater the pressure at the exhaust valve and the less ability of the cylinder to expel all the exhaust gas. It is clear the diameter of pipe chosen must maximise flow but minimise surface area of the walls.
On a 4cylinder engine a 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust gives a broader torque peak than a 4 into 1 system but the 4 into 1 gives a higher peak torque. The reason for this is that in a 4-2-1 system some of the energy of the outgoing pulse is lost at each transition so is less effective at the final collector.
This is why tuned (equal) length primary and secondary pipes coupled to correctly sized main pipes and (for V8s) correctly located H or X pipes leading into properly sized and configured silencers is important.
A common mistake boy racers make is to go too large on the exhaust size, which reduces the gas velocity and reduces torque. This applies to any part of the system (including tail pipe).
When I had access to an engine dyno we did a lot of testing of race engines and exhaust configurations. The best tailpipe configuration we found was the traditional megaphone - a pipe that progressively increased in diameter over 3 feet of its length. It did have the significant drawback of being extremely loud!
Every exhaust is a compromise in that what works at 2000rpm may not work at 5000rpm (and vice versa).

Cruciform V8s (where the 4 throws of the crankshaft are at 90 degrees to one another) suffer an additional complication. The effective firing sequence of the banks goes LRRLRLLR. You can see there is a double pulse per bank in any complete firing sequence. This is where the characteristic rumble of a V8 comes from. The H pipe or X pipe seeks to use the energy in the double pulse to benefit the opposite bank in the same way the pulse of gas at the collector of each individual bank benefits the next cylinder to fire. There have been exhausts designed to overcome the double pulse effect in each bank and these have a very different sound. The Ford GT40 is a classic example. In general its not practical to do this as the exhaust system becomes very complex and requires a lot of space as two exhaust primaries per bank need to cross under (or over or around) the engine to the opposite bank.

On a modern ECU controlled engine you would need to seriously screw up you exhaust design to burn valves. That can only happen if EGTs getting too high and that can only happen with too much back pressure (allowing hot exhaust gases to linger at the exhaust valve) screwed mixtures (not possible when the engine is running closed loop) or poor timing. That said to get the best from any exhaust modifications the engine should be retuned to take advantage of the improved scavenging.

So... provided any exhaust modification does not decrease scavenging (for example increasing pipe diameter too much or introducing flow resistance through silencer internal design) there should be no negative impact on torque.

There are plenty of aftermarket exhaust manufacturers who know their stuff and design quality silencers (some are even better than AMG ones). To say only AMG get it right is simply not true.

Thanks for the info, yes you are right ... I loosely used the term "back pressure" incorrectly. I was meaning the loss of scavenging suction, when people just make the pipe diameter bigger.
And again you are right not only AMG can do it, but for the layman how does one choose a company that really knows? Unless you yourself really know all the questions to ask them. Hence the safety of going with AMG is a plus point for a novice like me.
 

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
9,030
Reaction score
7,007
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
S204 C180K
............for the layman how does one choose a company that really knows? Unless you yourself really know all the questions to ask them. Hence the safety of going with AMG is a plus point for a novice like me.

You really have to trust in the experience of the company you choose to do the work. I find personal recommendations the best way to choose every time. In the case of exhaust work, Torqueflow in Birmingham and EMP in St Albans are both capable and highly recommended fabricators in whom you can trust to do the work you require.
 

John Laidlaw

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
26,373
Reaction score
9,163
Location
Wirral
Your Mercedes
Land Rover Discovery 4
You really have to trust in the experience of the company you choose to do the work. I find personal recommendations the best way to choose every time. In the case of exhaust work, Torqueflow in Birmingham and EMP in St Albans are both capable and highly recommended fabricators in whom you can trust to do the work you require.
Agreed Roger, and further North I definetely recommend Cybox
 

Steve@Avantgarde

Forum Supporter
Authorised Forum Supporter
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
7,314
Reaction score
1,955
Location
Bristol/Somerset
Website
www.avantgarde-automotive.co.uk
Your Mercedes
E300 Coupe AMG Line PP/NE, SLR McLaren Roadster, SL55 & C32AMG
Well,

If you are put off by CKS then try Infiniti Exhausts down here in the south west, Projex Design also have good contacts in the exhaust world.
 

alexanderfoti

MBO Forum Supporter
Authorised Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
15,091
Reaction score
6,247
Location
Tonbridge
Your Mercedes
W221 S65 AMG - W204 C63 AMG + Various other MB's
You really have to trust in the experience of the company you choose to do the work. I find personal recommendations the best way to choose every time. In the case of exhaust work, Torqueflow in Birmingham and EMP in St Albans are both capable and highly recommended fabricators in whom you can trust to do the work you require.

EMP are excellent fabricators, but fall short on the engineering side of the exhaust noise. Their solution to drone on my CL was to put increasingly larger silencers in the center pipe. All until I took it back and had the original system put back on again!
 

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
9,030
Reaction score
7,007
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
S204 C180K
EMP are excellent fabricators, but fall short on the engineering side of the exhaust noise. Their solution to drone on my CL was to put increasingly larger silencers in the center pipe. All until I took it back and had the original system put back on again!


That isn't so good. Fortunately Imran at Torqueflow seems to know what the Benz guys are looking for with exhaust note and he is pretty good.
 

Relu

Active Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
28
Reaction score
6
Location
Corby
Your Mercedes
SL 500 2003
Agree with with Malcom, bad experience with those CKS Performance aka( CKS Dodgy Performance) Watford.

!!!AVOID THEM!!!
 
OP
harrye500

harrye500

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
557
Reaction score
457
Location
Cheshire
Your Mercedes
2017 W213 OM654 E220 Estate (the main driver) and 2010 A207 E500 (now 'the Summer Car')
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #20
Hello all, thank you very much for all the views and opinions and apols for late acknowledgement, I have been away on my hols. Seems there is more to it! So I will keep all comments and hopefully do something in the Autumn (don't want to be convertible car-less for a few days in this lovely weather now do I)!! Andy
 


Chris Knott Insurance, see oursticky posts here!
www.ckinsurance.co.uk
Top Bottom