Manchester attack news

[Frontstep]

I watched the coming together in the City Centre and it dawned on me how much I appreciate the people who allow these events to happen and who mostly keep us all safe the Police and security services, the emergency services who turn up when we are at our lowest and the medical staff who mend those caught up in these atrocities who to my knowledge are all entirely innocent.

I though want to be divided ...........from terrorists, sympathisers and those who enable by doing nothing.

Its not a race issue ................... so racism doesn't come into it, the ideology of the devout causes the problem.

The terrorists are not interested whether we are divided or not.

Love doesn't conquer all.

Why do people want to "talk" with child murderers ?

For those who want to negotiate with Isis could they itemise what they want to compromise on ?

For Jeremy, Islamic terrorism started in the 7th century its not down to recent wars.

 

[C350Carl]

I watched the coming together in the City Centre and it dawned on me how much I appreciate the people who allow these events to happen and who mostly keep us all safe the Police and security services, the emergency services who turn up when we are at our lowest and the medical staff who mend those caught up in these atrocities who to my knowledge are all entirely innocent.

I though want to be divided ...........from terrorists, sympathisers and those who enable by doing nothing.

Its not a race issue ................... so racism doesn't come into it, the ideology of the devout causes the problem.

The terrorists are not interested whether we are divided or not.

Love doesn't conquer all.

Why do people want to "talk" with child murderers ?

For those who want to negotiate with Isis could they itemise what they want to compromise on ?

For Jeremy, Islamic terrorism started in the 7th century its not down to recent wars.

I wish you wouldn't cloud the lefty Utopian dream with common sense and reality..... .

Only point I would argue is that it's not the ideology of the devout. It's the ideology of the extremists. I work with a few devout Muslims. None of whom are terrorists, agree with what the extremists say or do and 'actively engage' in stopping them.

 

[Frontstep]

I wish you wouldn't cloud the lefty Utopian dream with common sense and reality..... .

Only point I would argue is that it's not the ideology of the devout. It's the ideology of the extremists. I work with a few devout Muslims. None of whom are terrorists, agree with what the extremists say or do and 'actively engage' in stopping them.

Devout: totally committed to a cause or belief,

Or extremist you choose, the extremist does the dirty work but the devout facilitate it.

Should I blame the monkey or the organ grinder ?

 

[M80]

Devout sounds honourable,
extremist sounds like a nutter.

 

[Frontstep]

Devout: totally committed to a cause or belief,

Or extremist you choose, the extremist does the dirty work but the devout facilitate it.

Should I blame the monkey or the organ grinder ?

Nutter sounds fine to me .

 

[C350Carl]

Devout: totally committed to a cause or belief,

Or extremist you choose, the extremist does the dirty work but the devout facilitate it.

Should I blame the monkey or the organ grinder ?

The devout do not facilitate the extremists dirty work at all. You can't go round saying that all devout muslims are facilitating the extremists anymore than you could say all Catholics were facilitating the IRA or Catholics and Protestants the KKK!

There are many extremists who don't get involved in the 'dirty work' as you put it. Look at Anjem Choudry. Extremist in every sense of the word, yes he's also devout in his beliefs which are in line with those of ISIS etc. But he doesn't get involved in the dirty work, he facilitates it.

On the flip side a few of my friends who are devout Muslims in no way shape or form facilitate extremism. They do help facilitate them moving on from this life however!

 

[LostKiwi]

The pope is devout.
The KKK are extremists.
Does the pope facilitate the actions of the KKK?

 

[Frontstep]

Interesting replies but they miss the point Catholicism, nor any other religion that I know does not contain the ambiguous inflammatory passages in the form that the Koran does,
the crackpots cling to them to justify their actions.

It is up to the Islamic world to put its house in order.

Their fundamentally a good lot I am sure they can manage it.

 

[LostKiwi]

Interesting replies but they miss the point Catholicism, nor any other religion that I know does not contain the ambiguous inflammatory passages in the form that the Koran does,
the crackpots cling to them to justify their actions.

It is up to the Islamic world to put its house in order.

Their fundamentally a good lot I am sure they can manage it.

Really? So all those grand inquisitors acting in the name of the church and using scripture to support their actions were lying then.
And the KKK aren't quoting scripture either?

The point is that any Abrahamist religion is ambiguous enough to allow fanatics to quote sections of it to support evil acts.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Must say I really wouldn't mind looking at Choudary... I've a hankering to have a cabby on one of those AW.50 jobs.

 

[C350Carl]

Interesting replies but they miss the point Catholicism, nor any other religion that I know does not contain the ambiguous inflammatory passages in the form that the Koran does,
the crackpots cling to them to justify their actions.

It is up to the Islamic world to put its house in order.

Their fundamentally a good lot I am sure they can manage it.

Maybe you should have a good chat with a devout Muslim. Then have a thorough read of the bible!

Here's a few examples of the 'non-inflammatory' bible you speak of.

While Israel remained at Shittim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab. 2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3 So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the Lord was angry against Israel. 4 And the Lord said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." 5 So Moses said to the judges of Israel, "Each of you slay his men who have joined themselves to Baal of Peor," (Num. 25:1-5).

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves," (Num. 31:17-18).

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Happy is he who will take your babies and smash them against the stones. Psalm 137

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:21

On the flip side as I have said in a previous thread. The violence that is in the Quran is for defence. It specifically forbids religious acts of aggression or the killing of innocent civilians.

The Quran makes a clear distinction between the so called Jihad, which I also said means struggle now warfare, and Irjaf which is basically terrorism. It states in the Quran that those conducting Irjaf will go to hell.

All the quotes from the bible are taken out of context of course. Just like the extremists do with the verses from the Quran they use to justify their barbaric actions.

 

[Craiglxviii]

There's also the thing that much of the Quran is lifted from what became the Bible anyway...

 

[Frontstep]

Do you really want to go down the route of quoting inflammatory passages from the Bible as being somehow comparable with the Koran really ?
Should we be looking for Christian terrorists next ?

Shouldn't you realise that with the restraint of historical circumstance of the Bible the passages bears no comparison to the open ended passages in the Koran.
Or should we look at the actuality of whats happening in the world today and not bother looking for Christians inflamed by the Bible and compare them to Muslims ?
How crass do we need to get ?
The problem is here or more accurately all around the world of Muslim terrorists.
The elephant carries the Koran why make excuses ?

 

[Craiglxviii]

I think Carl's point is more that both religious texts have specific and implied instructions to violence in different circumstances and in that they're little different to each other.

The Bible has, especially in the Old Testament, some truly toe- curling instructions to kill that the Quran does not- or at least not under the same circumstances.

The problem here is how various elements of each religion has decided to interpret those texts. The radical mediaeval wannabe goat botherers have decided to believe a specific interpretation of Islam that (not too coincidentally) demands the subversion of government and seizing of power wherever they go.

None of that changes the fact that Christianity has spilled its own fair share of blood over the centuries.

 

[C350Carl]

Do you really want to go down the route of quoting inflammatory passages from the Bible as being somehow comparable with the Koran really ?
Should we be looking for Christian terrorists next ?

Shouldn't you realise that with the restraint of historical circumstance of the Bible the passages bears no comparison to the open ended passages in the Koran.
Or should we look at the actuality of whats happening in the world today and not bother looking for Christians inflamed by the Bible and compare them to Muslims ?
How crass do we need to get ?
The problem is here or more accurately all around the world of Muslim terrorists.
The elephant carries the Koran why make excuses ?

You can't seem to get it through your head that it's a MINORITY of 1.1bn (more Muslims than Catholics) that are warping the texts and passages can you?

My point was that ALL religions can be, and are, taken out of context or twisted to justify violence against others.

 

[triumphstag]

You can't seem to get it through your head that it's a MINORITY of 1.1bn (more Muslims than Catholics) that are warping the texts and passages can you?

My point was that ALL religions can be, and are, taken out of context or twisted to justify violence against others.

The difference is that the Christian authorities deal with the nutter factions within their midst. The Muslim community leaders are seemingly failing to do this. I am not saying that this is through a lack of trying, but to compare the two is ridiculous. The difference between your average Christian and a Christian terrorist is a million miles in their beliefs and devotion.
For Islam the "jump" is much smaller. To dismiss the problem as a small minority is suicidal in the same way as dismissing cancer as it's only a few cells.
The Muslim community need to do more to root out these scum, not protect their Muslim brothers.

 

[C350Carl]

Ok then!

To put this in perspective for you all again as the other thread is closed.

There have been just over 150,000 terrorist attacks globally by all types of fanatic since 1970. If EVERY single one was conducted by a Muslim it would account for 0.00009% of the Muslim population in the world.

Now tell me it's not a minority.....!

 

[Frontstep]

I fundamentally accept that it is a minority of Muslims but it is still a Muslim problem conducted by people who follow the Koran and who knows how many million enablers and sympathisers.

The Former Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Adel Kalbani: Daesh ISIS have the same beliefs as we do;

Why can we and the Muslim world not accept this and work perhaps together on solving the problem.

The fact it was only a minority of Catholic Priests did not stop the Catholic Church eventually acting.

Why should this thread be closed we adults discussing a problem ?

I happen to know where the Catholic Church hid its abusive priests.
They put their head in the sand for years before they acted too.

 

[M80]

I see that both sides of this argument are right.

The radical Muslims have developed significant strength, some by various names / tribes / and locations becoming allies. We are told that the fight against terrorism is winning, that 'may' be true but with recent events it doesn't feel like it.
So the danger perceived is that this threat has a real potential to grow, and as events are now closer to home we, as a population, shout louder about it.
When the massive number of atrocities are happening out in desert and jungle locations we just debate it with a polite attitude of "it isn't right is it?"

We need the Muslim population to 'help' overcome this threat at home. They have experts in numbers that can understand better the thinking of the enemy. Few Westerners, by comparison, can understand the Quran never mind the corrupt, radical interpretation of it.
The Muslim's can see the threats in their infancy where we, being so remote from the culture, wouldn't see it until it is a Westminster or Manchester event.
Within the Muslim communities they have opportunity to teach true and healthy Muslim values to their young, and root out the radical preachers.

If we take a view that this is all down to Islam and Muslims as believers, and we act with Islamophobia against the Muslim communities, there is a very great risk that we lose them as our allies in this war.
And of course the greater risk that more will become radicalised as they see the West as the enemy.

The radical preachers are very intelligent, their arguments must be very persuasive, enough for some dimwit to strap on a bomb and go off to be a hero. It needs those that understand the Quran to argue the peaceful interpretation to those open to radicalisation. That's not going to be us, and Islamophobia will only provide the radical preachers with supporting evidence for their anti west argument.

I feel we need to be more intelligent and learn more about Islam. To eliminate the them and us, and as a nation develop easy communication with our fellow Muslim citizens is better. We might as well as we wouldn't recognise a terrorist stood in front us anyway.

 

[davemercedes]

I think we tend to forget one aspect: fear.
- It's one of the greatest weapons in the bigotry arsenal: -

Many Germans in the 30/40s were deeply disturbed by what went on with the despicable treatment of Jews.
- But would you stand up and say "stop it!" when surrounded by 500 black shirts?

During "the Troubles" many people on both sides of the Catholic/Protestant and UK/independence divisions in Northern Ireland were deeply disturbed by what was going on. - But when you're in the pub having a quiet pint with your mates and a "collector" with a few "heavies" in tow, comes in rattling a tin would you say "No, I don't agree with it"?

We know that Muslims do sometime inform the authorities of people they suspect might be preparing for barbaric acts etc but they do it quietly under terms of anonymity. We also know that the ones who carry out the bombings don't care if they kill Christians, Muslims, adults or children. - So would you risk yourself, your wife and children by making a public statement?

Sadly, fear is an awful weapon.