Marine A

prwales

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to be released soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39417239

whilst I welcome this decision, it is a strange one, the court accepted he was suffering from a mental illness it flows from this that he should have been acquitted.

If anyone should have been on trial over the Iraq and Afghan conflicts it was and still should be Blair, Straw and all those who voted for it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2862397.stm

Ordinary soldiers invariably carry the can for the malfeasance of their "betters"
 

M80

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Mentally ill or not it was clear his thought processes were very logical.
 
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Wighty

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I'm glad he's out , can't believe he was sentenced in the first place . There is no way that people who have been in combat and seen friends die are unaffected by what has happened to them .
 

Naraic

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I'm glad he's out , can't believe he was sentenced in the first place . There is no way that people who have been in combat and seen friends die are unaffected by what has happened to them .

That is a poor view of our armed forces...and that's what the judge thought too.
 

Wighty

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That is a poor view of our armed forces...and that's what the judge thought too.

I have an incredible respect for our armed forces , I am truly humbled by what they have undergone in combat , but nobody is trained to mentally deal with the consequences . You can be tough on the outside but mentally we are all fragile to some extent . I believe his experiences in combat caused his actions therefore he is not fully responsible for his actions . But that's just my view
 

davemercedes

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Sadly I don't think he is "out" - the news was that he "may" be released in the next couple of weeks.

I feel that due to the fact that his mental condition was not considered at the time, he should be acquitted and moreover this is one case where compensation for a wrongful sentence should be paid out - to give him and his family, a chance to recover. It's rather shameful that nobody in this sorry mess seems to have thought "there but for the grace of God go I".

Have to applaud his wife too - who it seems has been the rock on his side.
 
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prwales

prwales

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Mentally ill or not it was clear his thought processes were very logical.

He was just an NCO, and I presume he was acting under orders of an officer [the chain of command]. I can't believe there was not some kind of unofficial no prisoners directive that had emanated from higher up [and deniable] in the food chain, or am I being too cynical.
 

M80

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He was just an NCO, and I presume he was acting under orders of an officer [the chain of command]. I can't believe there was not some kind of unofficial no prisoners directive that had emanated from higher up [and deniable] in the food chain, or am I being too cynical.

I've never been in such a situation, and have the greatest respect for those that are and have been there. Rightly or wrongly they are doing our dirty work and selfishly I'm glad it's them and not me.

I can't believe that there would be a higher and deniable directive for the everyday (to them) situations. There would be too many ways this would get out.
More importantly the quoted Geneva Convention, in its basics, is well understood, and he did understand.
If he considered there was a higher directive he wouldn't have felt the need to hide the actions.

I have no sympathy for the enemy here, but while we are taking the war to them, intelligently, for the enemy to believe they are soldiers defending their lands seems reasonable. He was a prisoner, injured and no threat.
 

Craiglxviii

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He was just an NCO, and I presume he was acting under orders of an officer [the chain of command]. I can't believe there was not some kind of unofficial no prisoners directive that had emanated from higher up [and deniable] in the food chain, or am I being too cynical.

"Just" an NCO....

If anything the rules of engagement go the other way. I can't comment on more recent affairs but certainly on BANNER, weapons were carried made safe (loaded but no round chambered) and a challenge had to be made before any fire could be returned. Bos and GRAPPLE was even stricter and Op Blow Up Iraqi Stuff Part 2 was quite constrictive. There was never a "no prisoners" rule promulgated, more "take great care not to break these rules" instead.
 

davemercedes

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Strange with Theresa May's vocation to set right all injustices that she ignored this case. Obviously her saintly thoughts are rather selective...

I hope he gets home soon and gets the help he needs. Thank heavens I never served in those conditions - I can't even begin to imagine how I would have performed.
 

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I you lined up all the soldiers who have done similar deeds I wonder how long the line would be.

The Geneva convention and other attempts to civilise killing people have to be the ultimate oxymorons.
 

Craiglxviii

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I you lined up all the soldiers who have done similar deeds I wonder how long the line would be.

The Geneva convention and other attempts to civilise killing people have to be the ultimate oxymorons.

They don't civilise the killing of people. They put a set of rules to various aspects of warfare- and that's a very good thing. For instance, the low airburst initiation of nuclear weapons over cities does not contravene the Geneva Conventuons. Comivilians aren't targeted, things around them might be however. Similarly the conventions prevent enslaving a civilian population and using them for ones own nefarious purposes. It also recognises that surrendering enemy soldiers should be treated properly and not summarily executed. For instance, a special order went out concerning the shoot on sight of SS officers during the latter days of the last war.
 

Frontstep

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I stick with civilise although the definition, of a more advanced stage of social development is hard to reconcile when blowing your enemy to bits or burning them to death is fine but gassing is not.
 

C350Carl

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I am commenting on this only because of having served in Afghanistan numerous times as well as other ****holes around the world. I have been in similar and worse situations than that of "Marine A". I have also been treated for PTSD. None of which I'm saying for any form of recognition, gratitude or sympathy. Just to qualify my response.

Whilst I fully understand the effect combat has is different to every individual. The stress that soldiers are out through during Pre-Deployment Training (PDT) is very intense.

I used to run the training at one point (in between a couple of the tours) and we made it as realistic as possible by using real amputees and a movie make up effects company to provide realistic casualties. That coupled with pyrotechnics and sleep depravation make the training quite intense. But does not completely replicate the real thing nor am I implying it does. However it does help start to condition the mind.

The bottom line is that we follow a strict set of rules of engagement for a very good reason. It's what sets us apart as professional soldiers from the oxygen thieving cnuts we are sent to deal with.

Marine A was quite clear in his actions and thought process. He even commented immediately he had just broken the Geneva Convention. This is not the rationale of someone who is suffering mentally.

Most combat soldiers (especially one with experience like Marine A) learn to put personal emotion to the back of the mind. For example whenever I was going out of camp, from the minute I stepped out the gate or got on a helicopter to the minute I got back in I would never ever think of my wife and children. I would block it to the back of my mind as I'd learned to do so over the years.

Regardless of what mental stressors he was suffering (and I do empathise a bit in that he was in a ****ty situation) he was not suffering from lack of judgement. He knew what he did was wrong and that he let the 'red mist' get the better of him.

There is categorically no chain of command above him that would have ordered this. Even on the most robust set of rules of engagement (which are only authorised at the highest level for certain operations) you still have to positively identify an enemy combatant who is actively a direct threat. You can't under any circumstances 'put someone out of their misery'.

In fairness to Marine A, having seen the detail behind this case, the Cnut he shot wouldn't have survived anyway. Not many do with a few 30mm holes in them! But he is not, and nor is any other British Soldier, Judge Dredd and can't be Judge, Jury and Executioner and go about exacting revenge on wounded enemy for injured and fallen comrades.

I agree he should be released as the court didn't have all the facts and they weren't given the option of anything other than a murder conviction.

But I don't for one minute condone what he did. I just feel he wasn't afforded a fair trial.
 
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^Fair and sensible.
 

davemercedes

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Yes, Carl a fair and sensible summary - thank you.

Similarly without condoning his actions I'm sure that having "been there/done that" you will also understand the very thin line between following the rules to the letter and "losing it".

He had to have had some very special qualities to reach the rank of Sergeant during his 15 years of service. One of the reports I read when his sentence was reduced, mentioned that the judges ruled that he “regarded himself as responsible for the member of his troop, particularly those with children (he had none); and therefore undertook more patrols and risks to himself so that his troops could all get home safely”.

They do seem to be taking their time on bringing this to a conclusion.
 

C350Carl

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Similarly without condoning his actions I'm sure that having "been there/done that" you will also understand the very thin line between following the rules to the letter and "losing it".


Oh yes I know that it is a very thin line indeed. This incident for him was obviously "the straw that broke the camels back" as they say.

I just hope the whole thing gets sorted very soon so that he and his family can start to rebuild their lives again. It's his family I most feel for. His one moment of madness has caused them unnecessary heartache. Certainly not plain sailing for him either.
 

yorkshire1

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Carl , how come it came to light, is the video footage reviewed post event......or
 

C350Carl

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It came to light through an investigation into a different matter with the Marine who was wearing the Helmet Cam. The RMP found the footage on his laptop and then alerted the civil authorities.
 

Craiglxviii

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It came to light through an investigation into a different matter with the Marine who was wearing the Helmet Cam. The RMP found the footage on his laptop and then alerted the civil authorities.

Nothing noted in his pln's After Action Report? Which means that he wasn't spotted by anyone else at the time, at least who noted it..?
 

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