Towing with an ML250

silestanix

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Just my 2p after reading this thread, usually MB do uprate things if you specify a towing pack.

My W202 has the towing pack, which included a larger capacity radiator, larger oil cooler (same place as usual one which is a oil/coolant exchanger mounted with the oil filter housing but a tad bigger) and hence larger transmission cooler. I've removed my towbar but am glad it has those things especially in summer.

Anyway,just my 2p
 

turbopete

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They're SUVs. Not off road towing cars. They're designed for a specific customer profile- 43, architect, 2.4 children, married (yes, really that specific).

so in that case, why add the extra complication and expense of a 4x4 system? and as for the 'need' to add bigger items, ive just been talking to a friend with, of all things, a RANGE ROVER. (auto V8 diesel). now his previous range rover sport (again V8 diesel auto) was remapped and virtually LIVED with bulky stuff on a car transporter trailer (2 tonnes of waste cooking oil on the trailer, sometimes more, and big empty IBC containers, caravans etc) and he had the towbar fitted (no other changes were mentioned) and being as it was a Range Rover, about the only thing he DIDNT have problems with, were the actual mechanicals (electrics, yes, but the actual engine/gearbox etc were great) and he put about 50k miles on that. so id say if JLR can do it (and make a decent profit out of doing so) then MB should be able to also. surely we don't have to actually admit that the Range rover has a better transmission system set-up than MB can manage?
 

turbopete

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Just my 2p after reading this thread, usually MB do uprate things if you specify a towing pack.

My W202 has the towing pack, which included a larger capacity radiator, larger oil cooler (same place as usual one which is a oil/coolant exchanger mounted with the oil filter housing but a tad bigger) and hence larger transmission cooler. I've removed my towbar but am glad it has those things especially in summer.

Anyway,just my 2p

again though, the point being, almost (I cant think of any but I'm sure someone will google it and find one) without exception EVERY OTHER manufacturer has got past this 1970s phenomenon! Ford don't need them (dad asked the dealer when he got his Kuga) Nissan didn't in 2001/2 when I worked at a dealer. neither did Renault. or Range Rovers, or my mates Jag when he had it. or Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen, VW (I know a guy who had caravans on all of those 4 regularly)

in the time I worked in garages, I only ever saw 3 transmission failures in autos, all owned by the same guy, who had a caravan and this was his 'caravanning' car. all were MB's (all S class in fact) yet any other cars he had previous to the MBs didn't have this issue. his widow still has an auto MB (c class) which has covered more miles and been less problematic NOT because its newer (its older in real terms than any of the S class cars were) but because it doesn't tow the caravan.
 

LostKiwi

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Having had Range Rovers and Land Rovers i would say in general they do have bdtter treansmission systems for 4WD use than pretty much anyone else.
It's their historical raison d'etre.
 

Mark A

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MB aren't the only ones to have this approach. I read recently that the 3.0 TDI VW Touareg also has to have a larger cooler added for towing.
 

Craiglxviii

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Answers in bold in your post.
so in that case, why add the extra complication and expense of a 4x4 system?

Because there is a market requirement for it, same as everything else. Why make crossovers with 4WD/ AWD? Because people are willing to pay (a premium) for them. See "rightsizing" in my previous post above.

and as for the 'need' to add bigger items, ive just been talking to a friend with, of all things, a RANGE ROVER. (auto V8 diesel). now his previous range rover sport (again V8 diesel auto) was remapped and virtually LIVED with bulky stuff on a car transporter trailer (2 tonnes of waste cooking oil on the trailer, sometimes more, and big empty IBC containers, caravans etc) and he had the towbar fitted (no other changes were mentioned) and being as it was a Range Rover, about the only thing he DIDNT have problems with, were the actual mechanicals (electrics, yes, but the actual engine/gearbox etc were great) and he put about 50k miles on that. so id say if JLR can do it (and make a decent profit out of doing so) then MB should be able to also. surely we don't have to actually admit that the Range rover has a better transmission system set-up than MB can manage?

The answer is pretty simple. It isn't because MB cannot design and build a better powertrain than JLR, it is that their sales (note- SALES) philosophy is to give away only what is needed for the car as ordered. That is a very German sales philosophy. Go and spend some time configuring, say, a Golf or Passat. Or A3/ A4. Or a 3 Series. You'll be there all day looking at different options, there are so many. Now go and do the same exercise with a Toyota or Nissan. You'll be there half an hour; there are very few available options as it's more a case of choosing which grade & which pack you want with it.. I've not looked at Land Rover products but Jaguar road cars are a bit of a halfway house between the two extremes.

What we find is that the OEMs who have high confidence of repeat business (mainly the Germans) feel that they can afford to not give away vehicle content. They mainly sit at the premium end of their business space and they charge for their content, each item definably and specifically. The less premium, more affordable OEMs feel less confident of repeat business and so give away more content within each spec/ grade. The cost of that is of course hidden in the cost of each model grade, but it is a safe bet that charging per item is more profitable than charging for a "pack", as each item is an easier upsell point for the dealer.

How does all of that link together? Fairly simple. A manufacturer will only put the correct amount of content into each car that they feel their customer base will support. It isn't a case of "MB designs are soooo bad because they need extra cooling". If it were, MB could (and do, in many cases- see A-klasse with Renault K9K engines and Nissan CVT transmissions) just buy in the tech that they want. No, it's that MB will sell their cars with the tech & content relevant for what that car is ordered as. Why spend another (say) $100 per car on greater mass cooling capacity if it's not needed for what the car is ordered for? And if the car needs it, it can get added- and that can be charged for at $2,500.

See what I mean now?
 

Craiglxviii

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MB aren't the only ones to have this approach. I read recently that the 3.0 TDI VW Touareg also has to have a larger cooler added for towing.

This goes to demonstrate my point about the German automakers having confidence in their repeat business.
 

keefysher

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again though, the point being, almost (I cant think of any but I'm sure someone will google it and find one) without exception EVERY OTHER manufacturer has got past this 1970s phenomenon! Ford don't need them (dad asked the dealer when he got his Kuga) Nissan didn't in 2001/2 when I worked at a dealer. neither did Renault. or Range Rovers, or my mates Jag when he had it. or Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen, VW (I know a guy who had caravans on all of those 4 regularly)

in the time I worked in garages, I only ever saw 3 transmission failures in autos, all owned by the same guy, who had a caravan and this was his 'caravanning' car. all were MB's (all S class in fact) yet any other cars he had previous to the MBs didn't have this issue. his widow still has an auto MB (c class) which has covered more miles and been less problematic NOT because its newer (its older in real terms than any of the S class cars were) but because it doesn't tow the caravan.

Pete, interesting you mention the S Klasse. As recorded on here many times, my W221 S350L had a retrofitted OEM tow bar specifically to tow a rather large caravan. The uprated cooling fan was part of that retrofit due to the fact that particular car withEuro 6 Blu Tec, staggered wheels etc was built to meet the emission requirements out of the factory. Had I wanted a towbar when it was built, something not on the wish list as we had a MotorHome at the time, it would have come out of the factory with the revised cooling fan to still meet the emissions requirements. This particular requirement is not limited to MB, but several german car manufacturers.

Yes, I could have gone non OEM aftermarket tow bar. Which mechanically would have done the job, but no tow bar sellers / fitters would guarantee the fitment. No tow bar fitter, nor several indies would touch the electronic interface on the car. Although I got the parts gratis due to supply issues, I would still have paid for the fan. A simple test, fan £800, invalidated warranty gearbox replacement £12k, no brainer.

My new tug, the GLE350 came with the factory fitted tow bar and was specifically ordered to tow a caravan. MB, unlike some makers fit the full electrical interface required to power the 12 of 13 pins on the electrics. Ford, BMW, VW, Kia, Hyundai, Vauxhall do NOT produce cars out of the factory with the necessary electrics, unless you specifically chase the dealer to ensure the order states they are required.

Whilst you can deride MB on the fan, you can equally deride the others for not putting the electrics on.

More importantly, prospective buyers of cars with a requirement for a towbar can read of the issues here.

Did you know that JLR had to recall Disco 4, RR, & RRSport to replace the rear cross members where tow bars had been fitted. In these cases the removable tow bars were replaced with fixed ball tow bars. Those fixed balls are not suitable used with AlKo stabilisers and lead to caravans dropping off the back. Toyota Land Cruisers also don't come out of the factory with AlKo suitable tow balls.

This towing lark, particlarly with caravans has moved on from the days of bung a ball on and off you go. Drop plates as on land rovers of days past , 2 inch or 50mm balls are all not currently suitable for towing current caravans with AlKo stabilisers. There is a height of tow ball standard that older typically well regarded tow cars such as X-Trails do not meet that standard. A raft of regs have come in in recent years that have changed the face of towing.
 

silestanix

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again though, the point being, almost (I cant think of any but I'm sure someone will google it and find one) without exception EVERY OTHER manufacturer has got past this 1970s phenomenon! Ford don't need them (dad asked the dealer when he got his Kuga) Nissan didn't in 2001/2 when I worked at a dealer. neither did Renault. or Range Rovers, or my mates Jag when he had it. or Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen, VW (I know a guy who had caravans on all of those 4 regularly)

in the time I worked in garages, I only ever saw 3 transmission failures in autos, all owned by the same guy, who had a caravan and this was his 'caravanning' car. all were MB's (all S class in fact) yet any other cars he had previous to the MBs didn't have this issue. his widow still has an auto MB (c class) which has covered more miles and been less problematic NOT because its newer (its older in real terms than any of the S class cars were) but because it doesn't tow the caravan.

Was more than an observation and contribution than anything else mate lol
 

Craiglxviii

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Now I have just looked through the full EPC. All MLs require an additional transmission fluid cooler when the towing hitch option is fitted. The base platform for the ML though, the E class 211 & 212, do not (they have no separate transmission fluid cooler available). Interesting.
 

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Probably because the ML's have a much higher towing capacity than the E class. As I have said previously, the standard system on the ML is NOT good enough for towing.

Ian.
 

Craiglxviii

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Probably because the ML's have a much higher towing capacity than the E class. As I have said previously, the standard system on the ML is NOT good enough for towing.

Ian.

That was my conclusion too.
 

prm

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I have an ML350 bluetec with which I've been towing a caravan for 3 years now, I had a retro fitted tow bar (£230),and it's been absolutely fine. I would suggest that you go for a 350 over the 250 though cos car and van is a lot of weight for a 4 pot engine
 

M80

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Probably because the ML's have a much higher towing capacity than the E class. As I have said previously, the standard system on the ML is NOT good enough for towing.

Ian.

It follows from that, that if the actual ML GTW in practice is no more than the permissible GTW of the 211 or 212 then the ML transmission cooling system is adequate.
That is, the caravan that is being towed isn't as heavy as the ML is capable of towing then the system isn't being loaded as much as it might. Also the gearing of the ML should reduce loading under acceleration.

Of course if towing in higher ambient temperatures, like the Aus summer, or hauling up the Alps any system might be put under strain. Maybe altitude would have an adverse affect too with the, air density being less.
 

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It follows from that, that if the actual ML GTW in practice is no more than the permissible GTW of the 211 or 212 then the ML transmission cooling system is adequate.
That is, the caravan that is being towed isn't as heavy as the ML is capable of towing then the system isn't being loaded as much as it might. Also the gearing of the ML should reduce loading under acceleration.

Of course if towing in higher ambient temperatures, like the Aus summer, or hauling up the Alps any system might be put under strain. Maybe altitude would have an adverse affect too with the, air density being less.

The GTW (I presume you mean Gross Towing Weight) of the ML is 3.5 tonnes which is a lot more than the 211 or 212. On top of that, the ML is already driving its own weight - 2.2 tonnes which is a fair bit more than those vehicles. I found that, even towing 1.6 tonnes with a loaded ML on holidays, was causing overheating problems with the transmission in any sort of heavy duty work - long hills, hot conditions etc. Oil was blackening quickly and smelling burnt. Water (coolant) temps rose to 95° and held there with the fan cutting in, so that side was under control. I cannot come to any other conclusion. The addition of an extra tranny cooler fixed those issues immediately. OK, I am talking Oz temps but you guys do get heat waves with temps over 30 at times and you do take them to the continent. Spain can be as bad as Oz in summer and there are some BIG mountains there too.

Ian.
 

M80

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GTW means gross train weight Oigle.
As you say the max GTW for the Gr Cherokee will be similar to yours at 5,866Kg, 3,135Kg of which is the empty kerb weight of the car itself. Max braked trailer is 3,360Kg, where as I would expect the max trailer weight of a 211 to be close to 1,500Kg+. The 203 was 1,500Kg max.

So, assuming the ML is similar to the Gr Cherokee, the ML is hauling 1,600Kg as approx half its max allowable capacity and is approx the total max capacity of the 211.
The 2.1 litre 211 will be revving at approx 2K, about the same as the ML (assumed) and the Gr Cherokee. The large 3 litre 211 will be revving at approx 1.6K so the gearing of the ML is more suited to towing anyway.

I would agree that a larger transmission cooler is preferable, but maybe not so critical until towing heavier lumps, in higher temps or longer, higher inclines.
 

ajlsl600

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Tow bar fitting = £480 for a removable one...


for the ml250 £ 166.00 with "universal electrics FIXED SWAN NECK
£135+ 114 Euro for dedicated can bus type.origional plugged harness from germany, fitted ones self,following which the car needs "educating" !!! trying to find out if i can do that with my offline xentry and if not how to get over that . only tow small trailer so doubt cooling an issue. but i will look into ,if i can just buy the 800w cooling fan moter and if its a direct fit ?? suspect mr benz will make the matter as difficult/expensive as possible,AS USSUAL.
 
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spenttherent

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Really interesting comment from someone who started caravanning in the 70's with a Renault 5 towing a Sprite 400. On strong headwind days I was stuck in 3rd gear, it wouldn't pull in 4th.


Made me laugh that

Had the same problems with my first caravan, even had a spoiler to help get me into 4th


old van 2.jpg

This was my first van towing with a 1500 golf diesel in the early 80s. I was on my way down the west coast of France.....No extra cooling, different fuel tanks or dedicated electrics, just a bolt on tow bar cost about 50 quid
 

ajlsl600

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There is a very good reason why manual gearboxes don't have cooling fans/radiators/heat exchangers.
With a very few notable exceptions they don't have an oil pump so lack the means to circulate the oil through a cooler.
The only manual boxes I know of with internal pumps are Land Rover ones (forced lubrication to the mainshaft).

Autos also stress the oil far more than a manual - the oil is used as a transmission medium to transfer the torque/power to the driven wheels, as an hydraulic fluid to control clutch packs and bands and as a lubricant. Oil in a manual is only used for lubrication.

I remember as a teenager/early 20s we fitted auxiliary transmission coolers to vehicles used for a lot of towing.

So the question of is the MB cooling or autobox substandard.... I would say no as the vehicle is designed not to tow so the cooling and autobox are specced accordingly. If someone desires to tow then the factory kit includes upgraded cooling capacity since the design parameters for the vehicle as used by 90% of people have changed. If the vehicle came with a towbar as standard and then required an additional cooling kit before you could use it then yes that would be poor.


fortunately i gave this some thought before proceeding . in my case the occasional ,maybe a dozen times a yr ,tow of 1 tonne over maybe 20 km total, is in my view unlikely to amount to much to consider , HOWEVER it is NUTS that THESES days one CANT asume that a 4x4/allwheel drive CANT tow without £1000,s of extras. if its a 4x4 it should be a requirement for it to be built WITH the ability. AS INDEED MOST VEHICLES WERE TEN YR OR MORE AGO remember a while back ,someone posted a dealer who sold an estate car,benz, that also could NOT tow,am i incorrect,if not thats just plain stupid design ,sorry craig ..lets have a survey on here do we think that a 4x4 should come built as std to tow its rated capacity or do we think that one must pre order that requirement.?
i have been in the trade 40 yr and until recently would have never thought it necessary to CONSIDER if or not a 3lt estate or 4x4 would or would not have the ability to tow a caravan or trailer. to me and lets ask on here ?its simply another MODERN take on a way to milk the public . as said previously in around 2003/4, not certain, i fitted a bar and electrics on my clk 320 in just over 5 hr. because of all the expensive plastic crxp that i did NOT want to break it took me almost a day to get the ml bumper and related kit off and back plus half day to fit the bar and i still have to faff around to fit the harness /can stuff and find a way to educate the car ,bonkers! this SHOULD BE A FIT,PLUG AND PLAY THING PERIOD.
 

LostKiwi

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The blame for this 4x4 towing thing can be laid at the feet of marketing departments.
Softroaders are the root cause. Mrs Joe Public decided she needed a 4x4 to drop the kids off at school yet all the mainstream ones were too big. Cue marketing directing the construction of smaller less capable 4x4s . These are often fitted with automated 4x4 systems such as Haldex which simply cannot deal with the demands of towing. The mainstream big stuff in the meantime is trying to justify its cost so moves up market to the luxury end, the buyers of which frequent cities and large towns. The 4x4 has transitioned from being a work horse into a fashion statement and suddenly towing capacity is unimportant so the necessary hardware removed as a cost cutting exercise.
 

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