What is it? Clutch, Flywheel or what?

[JuniorMechanic]

Hi, it's Juior Mechanic. I have been seeking a solution for my problem, and haven't found it. And I have no idea where to look, where to begin. My car is a 1991 w124 230CE (catalytic converter) five speed manual gearbox

The engine is smooth, drives and runs ok, it also starts ok.

Problem: when you shut it down, doesn't do it smoothly. I makes a "cla cla cla" noise immediatly when turning the engine off. It's like the last engine cycle-movement makes that noise.
When you try to put the first gear, you cannnot do it smoothly, you have to be slightly agressive, otherway the engine and the car will vibrate quite a lot and shudder.
What is interesting is that the "cla cla cla" noise only appears when the engine is warm: if you start it from cold, and shut it off immediatly (before warms up 5-10 minuts) won't make any noises. Weird.
Also, if you rev the engine high, and let the RPM to go down, these fall into a poor idle for about a second and then recovers the right idle.
And, If I turn of the engine pressing the clutch pedal, the "cla cla cla" noise is less loud, almost gone, but still there.


A way to detect flywheel issues is to press and release the clutch and look for noises. But isn't my case. I have tried that and makes no noises.

I am guessing that all these issues are related to the same problem, or aren't they?
I am scared about the flywheel (1020303105): is no longer available (aftermarket). But I have seen aftermarket prices and they are very very high: around 1000 GBP. That is crazy. The OEM I don't wanna guess, but may be a lot more, but may not be available either...
The clutch is available in aftermarket parts at good prices.

I have not found any w124 dual mass flywheel or clutches issues, so it's weird for me to think it may be the flywheel. Do w124 flywheels have to be replaced often?
So, can anyone help me here? Is it the flywheel? The clutch? Something else?

Thanks

 

[LostKiwi]

Do 124s have dual mass flywheels? I would have thought they were too early...

When you say you have to be aggressive putting it into first it sounds like the clutch isn't disengaging. Try engine off and if it engages smoothly engine off but not engine on you definitely have a clutch that's not disengaging properly.

 

[JuniorMechanic]

Thanks LostKiwi, but it engages ans disengages good. By agressive I meant you have to go off on first gear fast, other way everything stumbles.

 

[Botus]

a video would at least give a clue about the issue you have.... I read it and no idea what the noise is and where is coming from

high revs and wobbly idle as it returns to idle is common on many engines as they age, check the intake system for leaks worn vacuum hoses and the breather system / PCV are all good

other odd drivers of noises can be worn, broken, nasty after market exhausts. worn / failed engine mounts. torsional vibration damper worn out.

a difficult to select gear can come from the clutch plate sticking on the input shaft and thus not fully releasing when the clutch moves.... or worn out synchro's or the wrong oil in the gearbox

if the clutch is making noises and not working well... you can always pull it out and take a look

 

[ajlsl600]

Saw earlier had also though vac related. But many possibilities botus right. No way to know better without further info/video

 

[d215yq]

Do 124s have dual mass flywheels? I would have thought they were too early...

When you say you have to be aggressive putting it into first it sounds like the clutch isn't disengaging. Try engine off and if it engages smoothly engine off but not engine on you definitely have a clutch that's not disengaging properly.

My 87 300D has one of the first DMFs ever fitted to a car, unfortunately. I wasn't aware they bothered on the petrol manuals but they may well - mine is also 800€ for the flywheel (though autocarparts.co.uk did do a genuine LMUK one for "only" 550€ on offer periodically...still not much change from 800k€ min for flywheel/clutch/fitting).

I am not sure what is meant by "has to go into first quickly" but on mine the clutch has always ridden high and if let out quickly will judder quite easily, takes a little while to get used to starting off smoothly and I believe through research it may be a warn DMF that cuases it. That said it doesn't need many revs at all to start smoothly with a bit of practice and doesn't have to accelerate "fast", but that might be as it's a low torque diesel so very hard to stall - will set off in 2nd on idle when warm but it's true the slower you go the more likely you are to judder it. I have also been told the clutch has 5k miles on it as it rides high but that was 105k miles away and there is still no slip. It also makes more vibrations at idle with clutch up than clutch down? The engine runs generally smooth but at 1100rpm/2200rpm/3300rpm it is out of balance and vibrates the whole car slightly even in neutral but worse under hard load - something which I was told could be the crankshaft harmonic balancer, flywheel or even clutch. Engine mounts/propshaft doughnuts never solved it either.

Ultimately with too many things to potentially replace costing €€€€€ that might solve it I've never bothered in 105k miles and I don't do much town driving so it doesn't bother me. Perhaps going up hills at motorway speeds you can feel the vibrations but I just put that down to it being old - and that could be suspension out of line/driveshafts or a whole host of other things that cost more €€€€€s too.

Over the years I have done much research online as it interests me and asking at garages the odd occasion they've had it for otehr work and the conclusion has always been unless you're prepared to spend a lot of money on it trial and error you'll never get to the bottom of it/solve it. Whatever it is the car has now done 310k, atleast 105k miles of my ownerhsip plus however many before behaving like this and has original driveshafts, flywheel, clutch, engine, gearbox, etc so the rest of the car seems strong enough to tolerate it. Do check the internet carparts sites and if it does bother you, the best bet (though not guaranteed) is to pick up a flywheel when on offer and a clutch and then fit them both at the same time.

 

[DREAMER NO2]

JuniorMechanic If it starts ok,, then its not the flywheel ,,so you can forget it The starter runs on the gear on the outside of the flywheel if you dont hear any bad noise from it when you start, then it is not that.I would go over your cars vacuum lines and conectors for splits or pipes that have come off .A video would help

 

[EmilysDad]

JuniorMechanic If it starts ok,, then its not the flywheel ,,so you can forget it The starter runs on the gear on the outside of the flywheel if you dont hear any bad noise from it when you start, then it is not that. ...

Not sure I'd agree with that ..... The starter will still spin the flywheel from the outer gear as you say, but the middle dual mass bit could still be fubar'd

 

[Ben Smith]

Sounds like a possible gearbox issue but with out stripping it’s hard to pin point which part.
It would make sense that it’s related to how long it’s been running, the gearbox oil will be cold and will have a high viscosity(thick) and will become ‘thinner’ the longer it has been running, therefore easier damaged components to move easier creating a louder noise or vibration.

Try changing the transmission fluid maybe a slightly higher viscosity than the one that’s in there now, then listen again.

 

[JuniorMechanic]

Hi,
thanks to all of you I really appreciate it. I made a video as requested (cold start, but as a I said, does the same thing when warm):

Turn volume up, and listen when I shut it down. Thanks. About the vacuum lines, I have not found the right diagram for my model, (230CE W124 Catalytic converter), plus I am a junior mechanic, I don't know much about vacuum lines. Where can I find the right diagram?

About the oil gearbox, I will replace it as soon as possible, but as I said, the noise is always there, cold or warm, clutch pressed or not. (with clutch pressed is slightly less loud)

Thanks

 

[Ben Smith]

Ah ok it’s easier with the video and sound, you are on the right lines and sounds like the flywheel or the clutch release bearing.

If you can afford to I’d change the release bearing and flywheel. Also check the clutch wear plate as its easy to change when you are that deep.

Some of the big motor factors have big discounts at the moment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[star]

No dual mass on this car, try depressing the clutch and engaging a gear, then switch off. I seem to recall noise from the backlash in the gearbox when turning off. Harsh engagements of clutch is normally clutch plate gone hard or glazed.

 

[Botus]

I hear a knocking during cranking just as it fires (bit like exhaust hitting something - most prominent in the first of three attempts) I don't hear anything as you turn it off

 

[matthew k]

I hear a knocking during cranking just as it fires (bit like exhaust hitting something - most prominent in the first of three attempts) I don't hear anything as you turn it off

Yeah, it sounds pretty sweet to me!!! Very jealous, manual too!!

 

[DREAMER NO2]

Thanks Star i was not sure about dual mass flywheel but you put the story right.
The noise could be from engine wear . Or the bracket on the gearbox to silencer i had this on my w123 they are the same idea .Only make the noise when you stop the engine . Just a shot in the dark.

 

[JuniorMechanic]

If this car has no Dual mass flywheel, I guess It has a single mass flywheel, right? Other way how does it work?

Thanks

 

[Ben Smith]

The basic function of a flywheel Is to transmit power from engine to the clutch plate (manual gearbox).
Your solid mass flywheel is made out of one piece of material.

A dual mass flywheel basically dampens any violent spikes in torque and will reduce vibration for a smoother transmission of power and to protect the gearbox from unwanted shock.
It is made from two flywheels with a series of high torsion springs in between to achieve this sponge effect.

 

[Botus]

before they became common at the other end many would have a pulley with a load of rubber between the heavy outer and the bit bolted to the crank….. "torsional vibration dampers". Some cars get both. The idea being it literally stops the crank snapping in half

which makes the Ford boys who swap to solid, so they "save money" and "remove the troublesome bit" are clearly much more knowledgeable and far more clever than the manufacturer