PCN in an area with no visible restrictions...

Conor

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So I will do my best not get ranty on this one but.. At the weekend I parked in a residential area in London and picked up a PCN, boo!

I genuinely believed there was no restriction in the area as I had a good look around the area before leaving my car and there were no signs.

Upon returning, I had a PCN on the window. Bemused, I walked around the area to see if there were any signs around. After walking up a road, by a roundabout in the estate there were little signs affixed by the exit of the round about that said something like "Permits required beyond this point.."

I was a bit peeved and found those signs opportunistically placed by the council - the height was also beyond that of which would be easily seen by a car driver. - I genuinely didn't see the notice.

Has anybody had an issue like this before and fought it. I have been looking at the traffic management act and can't find any reference to the placement of signs etc. Anywhere I have been before, there are always signs plastered all over the place.

</rant>

Sorry if this feels like a rant because I got a ticket, I have often paid tickets in the past when I have been wrong and caught but this seems predatory on the part of the local council, or just cost cutting by reducing the number of signs.
 

Tony Dyson

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Yes, I received a parking ticket in a shopping centre car park managed by private contractors for parking in a disabled bay, there was no signage and the bay markings were illegible, I took pictures and appealed through the channel on the ticket which was denied with the receipt of what looked like a photocopy of a standard letter and advised to pay the £100 fine or refer to an association ombudsman, I wrote back and advised them as far as I was concerned my photo evidence is suffice to prove my innocence and consider the matter closed. I received a letter soon after from a Debt Collection Co threatening action and increased charges, I responded with a copy of the photos and the same decision I advised earlier, I received two further letters from them which I ignored, that was 3-4 Years ago.

A similar situation with LCC and a council traffic warden, parking infringement, I took photo’s and submitted to the Council, they rejected, and the rest was exactly a duplication of previous events.

A photo tells a thousand words and in my experience no real or pseudo Debt Collection Agency will waste resources chasing £100 or a CCJ if there is a chance of them losing.
 

Srdl

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So I will do my best not get ranty on this one but.. At the weekend I parked in a residential area in London and picked up a PCN, boo!

I genuinely believed there was no restriction in the area as I had a good look around the area before leaving my car and there were no signs.

Upon returning, I had a PCN on the window. Bemused, I walked around the area to see if there were any signs around. After walking up a road, by a roundabout in the estate there were little signs affixed by the exit of the round about that said something like "Permits required beyond this point.."

I was a bit peeved and found those signs opportunistically placed by the council - the height was also beyond that of which would be easily seen by a car driver. - I genuinely didn't see the notice.

Has anybody had an issue like this before and fought it. I have been looking at the traffic management act and can't find any reference to the placement of signs etc. Anywhere I have been before, there are always signs plastered all over the place.

</rant>

Sorry if this feels like a rant because I got a ticket, I have often paid tickets in the past when I have been wrong and caught but this seems predatory on the part of the local council, or just cost cutting by reducing the number of signs.
As others have said, get some photos and then appeal to the Council on the basis that they have not taken sufficient steps to make the restriction clear. May be worth going via the Local Councillor for that area as well to try the personal touch. Don't give up without a fight. Good luck!
 
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Conor

Conor

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Yes, I received a parking ticket in a shopping centre car park managed by private contractors for parking in a disabled bay, there was no signage and the bay markings were illegible, I took pictures and appealed through the channel on the ticket which was denied with the receipt of what looked like a photocopy of a standard letter and advised to pay the £100 fine or refer to an association ombudsman, I wrote back and advised them as far as I was concerned my photo evidence is suffice to prove my innocence and consider the matter closed. I received a letter soon after from a Debt Collection Co threatening action and increased charges, I responded with a copy of the photos and the same decision I advised earlier, I received two further letters from them which I ignored, that was 3-4 Years ago.

A similar situation with LCC and a council traffic warden, parking infringement, I took photo’s and submitted to the Council, they rejected, and the rest was exactly a duplication of previous events.

A photo tells a thousand words and in my experience no real or pseudo Debt Collection Agency will waste resources chasing £100 or a CCJ if there is a chance of them losing.
As others have said, get some photos and then appeal to the Council on the basis that they have not taken sufficient steps to make the restriction clear. May be worth going via the Local Councillor for that area as well to try the personal touch. Don't give up without a fight. Good luck!

Thanks guys, I will do. I may update this later.

As luck would have it. I did meet a local councillor today who was sympathetic.
 

Dean Fletcher

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I got one once when I took my son to hospital he was having a asthma attack could barely breath this was at 11pm and ****ing down. The next day my wife turned to to swop shift and boom I had a penalty notice. So I wrote to them saying my son was ill and at 11pm at night plus it was an emergency I wasn't about to scrat around looking for change to get a ticket. They eventually dropped it. 2 weeks later the same thing happened but I did put 5 pound in and it should of lasted the day. I got to the car at arou d 10am booom another notice. I did write to them explaining that I did pay but was about 20 minutes over and told them about my sons condition and none they were not having it. I sent them a photo of a couple of fingers stuck up and they sent a few threatening letters for about a year and iv had nothing since. That was over 3 years ago.
 
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Conor

Conor

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Interesting. Sounds like the general trend is to ignore.. Hmm, I also read somewhere that parking violations were decriminalised many years ago. Does that mean the worst that happens is a county court judgement?

I also read from an authoritative source that if you get a CCJ you then have a small amount of time to pay the bill and the CCJ is voided.
 

Srdl

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Interesting. Sounds like the general trend is to ignore.. Hmm, I also read somewhere that parking violations were decriminalised many years ago. Does that mean the worst that happens is a county court judgement?

I also read from an authoritative source that if you get a CCJ you then have a small amount of time to pay the bill and the CCJ is voided.
If it gets as far as a Court summons, you still have the option to defend yourself and provide your evidence of inadequate signage. A Judge may well agree with you and refuse the CCJ. It’s certainly not a Criminal offence.
 

Blobcat

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I've seen quite a few cases listed for xxx -vs- whatever parking company in court so they definitely take people to court.

I'd be going down the photographs and appeal - if that gets nowhere and it does go to court you can then present your evidence again to an impartial judge. If you come across as reasonable and with decent evidence then it will most likely go in your favour.
 

LostKiwi

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Also depends if it's council issued or private. Do not ignore a council issued one.
 

Flyinspanner

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Look on these sites to get info & advice. I think the law changed a while back so you cannot just ignore these days.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com

http://www.pepipoo.com/

We o_O(swmbo) recently got one in a Asda/Cineworld/Nando’s multi outlet place which has a 5hr limit. Mrs had met a friend for lunch, gone to see a film, then popped into Asda for a few bits.....the issuers of the ticket weren’t helpful, neither were the businesses...so I actually tracked down the actual land owners.
I emailed explanation with copies of relevant bills, and said it was legitimate use, and the local press and social media sites would surely be interested in seeing a £100 pound parking fee.
Ticket cancelled.

Good luck getting a remedy :)
 

AMGeed

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I'd go the photo evidence and plea route before a summons is issued.
Once that is done, it can get expensive if you lose your plea, what with court costs, and a fine.
 

Srdl

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I'd go the photo evidence and plea route before a summons is issued.
Once that is done, it can get expensive if you lose your plea, what with court costs, and a fine.
The judge is certainly going to view your case more favourably if you have already tried to prove your innocence and the Council have ignored that evidence.
 

keefysher

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Of course Conor you will be given the opportunity to state your circumstances and ability to pay in prior to any Court proceedings.

There is a form that you fill in with your income and expenditure.
As you are new to working on your own as a legal entity instead of an employee you will probably have made no profit from your 1st year of trading. You will only have paid yourself the minimum below any tax/NIC threshold which is £11850 pa or £228 per week out of which you need to meet your living costs, not leaving much to pay any fines/costs against. You won't have taken any dividend and will have made a loss in that 1st year.

It's pointless a council trying to get blood from a stone and penalising you far in excess of any loss they may or may not have suffered through your deliberate criminal behaviour by parking your car.

Mitigation will be something like you are an immigrant that has left their home country to better yourself and earn a meagre living. As a foreigner in a strange land you are not fully aware of the lack of signage as in your home country there are no such sharks preying on the innocent motorist.

Play the system to best advantage :geek::rolleyes::D:cool:
 

d215yq

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Don't ignore it if it's council, those are the only ones that have precedent in court and are actually legitimate!

If it's private I think that it is very unlikely you will ever get anything, particualrly if you follow the guidance on line and are happy to ignore threatening letters.
 

M80

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The ignore might bite later. UKPC have a bad reputation and have been known to let the issue ride (or their debt collection body) for the permissable 6 years and come back later. I've read of victims having a CCJ that they were unaware of as they had moved, then the Baliff researches the new address I guess.

I'm challenging UKPC at the moment for their 2 parking invoices in London, at my Step Daughters property (permit parking which I had).
This has been passed to their debt collection 'body', and I'm refusing to deal with 'another' as my issue is with the original 'body' of UKPC. Truth is I don't know if that will bite me but don't see why I should have to deal with a further complication just because they want me to.
But these are only invoices, these being one from 5pm till midnight, and another from midnight till 6am, 2 x £100.
I see it as nowt more than scamming.
 

Tony Dyson

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The ignore might bite later. UKPC have a bad reputation and have been known to let the issue ride (or their debt collection body) for the permissable 6 years and come back later. I've read of victims having a CCJ that they were unaware of as they had moved, then the Baliff researches the new address I guess.

I'm challenging UKPC at the moment for their 2 parking invoices in London, at my Step Daughters property (permit parking which I had).
This has been passed to their debt collection 'body', and I'm refusing to deal with 'another' as my issue is with the original 'body' of UKPC. Truth is I don't know if that will bite me but don't see why I should have to deal with a further complication just because they want me to.
But these are only invoices, these being one from 5pm till midnight, and another from midnight till 6am, 2 x £100.
I see it as nowt more than scamming.

Exactly right, and no different than any perceived or genuine authority, selling a contested unpaid penalty notice to a Debt Collection Agency as a 'Bad debt'.
The Authorities whether genuine or private sell their bad debt to debt collection agencies thereby releasing their liability to the DCA, this is why IMCO you should take ownership of any further discussions and stand fast with YOUR Final Decision backed up with your photographic evidence and do not enter into any further discussion with them.
This of course will only work in your favour providing your evidence, without doubt, proves your innocence. To the OP, just ensure there are no missed notices on your route before you start your fight, possibly obscured by a vehicle earlier or bushes.
ETA Typo
 

M80

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DCA?
Just home and a letter from UKPC informs me that the opportunity for appeal has expired, referred to our debt recovery agent blah de blah. Contact Debt Recovery Plus.
So to my mind that isn't a debt sold on as they declare that DRP are there agents, and agents act on behalf of.

As it's another department of theres effectively they can communicate with them, not my responsibility.
A court decides if opportunity to appeal has expired.

Actually the Janitor of the property takes the photo's and passes them to UKPC, for a commission I imagine or there is little incentive.
Two of his photo's show what looks to be the permit in my windscreen, so I just referred them to their own photo's, with a phot copy of the permit.

Sorry to hijack.
 

Tony Dyson

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DCA?
Just home and a letter from UKPC informs me that the opportunity for appeal has expired, referred to our debt recovery agent blah de blah. Contact Debt Recovery Plus.
So to my mind that isn't a debt sold on as they declare that DRP are there agents, and agents act on behalf of.

As it's another department of theres effectively they can communicate with them, not my responsibility.
A court decides if opportunity to appeal has expired.

Actually the Janitor of the property takes the photo's and passes them to UKPC, for a commission I imagine or there is little incentive.
Two of his photo's show what looks to be the permit in my windscreen, so I just referred them to their own photo's, with a phot copy of the permit.

Sorry to hijack.
Debt Collection Agency

In that case, you're probably dealing with the same individual at UKPC just wearing different hats, attempting to convince you that you're dealing with some 'Higher Authority' UKPC are a private contractor selling services to anyone prepared to employ them and when they realise you're in the right and you're not going to be intimidated by their efforts, they will forget you, as the two others did in my first post. Good luck.
I'm sure the OP will benefit from the discussion in his decision moving forward.
 
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Craiglxviii

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Also depends if it's council issued or private. Do not ignore a council issued one.
Actually one can freely ignore a council issued parking ticket. The council has no powers to impose a fine for parking on public property and no powers to collect such a fine. They rely on fear & intimidation to collect the fines...
 

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