W211 Geometry/TRacking Issues v Value of Car

cheshireE220

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I have a 53 plate E220d CDI W211. It is on 138k miles, full MB main dealer history from new.
It drives perfectly - till now. The car pulls to the left within a count of 3 seconds if I hold the wheel very lightly. There is a slight steering wheel wobble at 30mph but wheel balance is fine.

I took it to a local fast-fit tyre outfit. They said the Caster and Toe and Camber are all out - both axles. This is probably wear and tear with coming to 17 years and 138k miles. Then proceeded to tell me it needed camber bolts from MB and the rear bushes through which the bolts go could be seized and take time to remove. Something about a bush at the end of the trunnion? I left the fast-fit outfit. Explained the dialogue to the MB dealer who said it could be a 1 hr job por 5 hr job if the bush/bolts are seized. I totted that up at £100/hr labour rate as £100 - £500 to sort out the geometry on a car not worth very much. To chop it in for a 3-4 year old E220 (obviously the latest generation) is gonna be very expensive - they start around low £20k's and I'm guessing the part-ex for my car going off we buy any car is around £600 before they inspect it and knock it down on that valuation.

How do I get the tracking and geometry sorted cost-effectively? Kwik-Fit say over the phone they have the latest Hunter Laser Alignment system and can adjust Mercedes and have the camber bolts if needed and anything else such as track rod ends they can order.

A MB indy specialist cannot say without looking at it - and I would have to pay at £84/hr - likely to be half and hour to check it out and advise what is required, if things are seized and estimate how much to put right.

A local garage that looks after old BMWs and Mercs and Audis has a labour rate of £36/hr. he can probably diagnose and change parts of the suspension and geometry with new parts at a much cheaper price.

But I'm throwing money at a car that is worth not a lot. Anybody suggest a way forward or should I stop paying anything and chop it in and buy a newer e-class? Mine runs like a dream. The next service is at least 12 months away. The only advisory on the MOT was front tyres starting to crack on sidewalls due to age but legal. So October could see 2 x new tyres for the front. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with the car - its just old and not as modern as the newer e-class. last year the SBC unit packed up (end of serviceable life) and was replaced at a cost of £1500.
So I need a cost-effective fix to sort out the geometry and any bits needed - parts may be required due to age, I'll pay for those. But a £500 bill for geometry at the MB Dealer and potentially £300 at a MB indy are high for the cars valuation. Kwik fit have fixed cost front axle £60 and £30 rear axle adjustment + parts i required.
 

JBell

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Last year you spent £1500 on an SBC pump on a car that is worth £600 so what is the problem with spending £500 on new rubber bits????

I would get the local garage to look at it
 

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The cost of having this done equates to the same money you will loose in the first 2 seconds of putting a key in a newer e class :D .
Whilst your car is working well I would pay a few hundred
 

malcolm E53 AMG

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I’d fix it if the car is OK in all other respects, buying a £20k newer car involves a £2K depreciation as soon as you leave the forecourt and another £3k over the first year of ownership. Why part with it if the bodywork and engine are sound
 
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cheshireE220

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Last year you spent £1500 on an SBC pump on a car that is worth £600 so what is the problem with spending £500 on new rubber bits????

I would get the local garage to look at it

The SBC was a fix that had to happen - a clear warning sign that does not go out. It is not possible to try and sell a car with a massive warning light across the main dial "SBC Workshop". I asked the Dealer's advice and he told me the car is in wonderful well maintained conditions, serviced on the dot with advisories addressed at each service (where any items are advised) and it cannot be sold with the warning ,light in any case. So I decided to address the issue rather than write-off the car.

The MB Main Dealer tried to re-program it but it stopped half way through (as he said it might) with the heart-stopping words "End of serviceable life. Replace"

There are no cheap options to replace SBC - the part is MB (though made by Bosch I believe - and buying the Bosch part does not have the warranty). Setting it up is complex. Indy's claim to be able to do it but did point out that they may have to refer it to the Main Dealer. Some outfit in Berkshire said they can over-write it and fix it but may not last long and I was advised not to do this - as the part has reached the end of life and could fail suddenly.

But looking at the geometry issue with emotional detachment, MB main Dealer is eliminated - just simply too expensive. There is a huge span in likely cost when they say if the bolts are seized in the bushes it could be up to 5 hours!

The MB indy is not much cheaper by the time I take the 50 mile round trip, pay for half an hour labour to inspect it and give me an estimate (not a quote). And then if I decide to go-ahead, another 50 mile round trip through Manchester's orbital car park - the M60 to Stockport and wait around or train back home and return next day on the train again (more costs). Bizarre this - to pay for having it seen to be told what it needs and estimate how much it costs. They must be in very high demand I guess and must have had people who take free diagnosis and then have the work done elsewhere or DIY. By all counts though, they have a very good name in this area - based in Stockport.

The two best-fit options appear to be (1) Kwik Fit for free inspection and establish what is required and the cost of fix.
(2) Local garage to diagnose and replace worn parts of geometry bushes etc and set it up.

The cost of parts is a given on all three options. It is the labour rate that drives the solution by the looks of it.
 
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cheshireE220

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I’d fix it if the car is OK in all other respects, buying a £20k newer car involves a £2K depreciation as soon as you leave the forecourt and another £3k over the first year of ownership. Why part with it if the bodywork and engine are sound
You raise a good point. The car engine and box are superb. Does not use a drop of oil ever between services. Gear shifts are silky smooth in Sport and Comfort setting. It had the MB transmission fluid changed at 40k miles. Then additionally I had it done at 100k miles (despite the fact it is not recommended) and the mechanic stated the fluid and filter were clean and no burnt smell sniffed in a car that has been aggressively driven. Again Main Dealer work - there were horror stories associated with using indy specialists and generic ATF - it had to be MB supplied ATF.

The bodywork is sound. No rust on the wheel arches at rear. Some rust blemishes (touched in with Kurust and primer and touch up stick) on top of the windscreen area - they all seem to have this. No structural rust anywhere.

Perhaps I should just consider that there is some wear and tear on suspension bushes to be addressed on any car of this age and mileage and not jump emotionally into changing it due to these items.
 
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cheshireE220

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Last year you spent £1500 on an SBC pump on a car that is worth £600 so what is the problem with spending £500 on new rubber bits????

I would get the local garage to look at it

The WBAC valuation is outright cash disposal value and assumed to be what MB dealer or any trader would offer me. The forecourt prices are a lot higher - around £2500.
 

JBell

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The SBC was a fix that had to happen

Knackered suspension is also a fix that has to happen as it has already altered the handling and if the geometry is out it will wear tyres incredibly quickly.

I would be spending the money without hesitation in the local garage, you have clearly looked after the car and by having a full MB service history haven't scrimped, it has served you well and will continue to for another 138k, Rubber parts always wear out.

Just FYI the gearbox oil should be changed every 4 years after the initial change
 

umblecumbuz

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Tricky problem. A lot depends on how much you like and trust the car, and how much longer you intend to keep it after these gremlins are fixed.

Possibly the biggest influencer to the final bill would be whether or not the eccentric bolts are seized. If they are not, then setting rear tracking and fore/aft camber is straightforward. If they are seized, it might be a very labour-intensive job - and hence expensive. A local garage would not take long to put your car on a ramp and check each adjuster bolt for free movement. This may be a worthwhile first step.

At present, I am setting up both fore and aft tracking and camber on my MX5, and finding that - as I expected - most of the bolts are seized in their bushes. I am having to use a sabre saw to cut them free prior to replacing with new. A pig of a job.

Have you thought of this alternative: Adjust the front tracking to compensate for the pull-to-the-left (or live with it if it is not excessive), and then resign yourself to buying tyres more frequently than before. If your mileage is not huge, this could be the cheapest option.
 
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cheshireE220

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Tricky problem. A lot depends on how much you like and trust the car, and how much longer you intend to keep it after these gremlins are fixed.

Possibly the biggest influencer to the final bill would be whether or not the eccentric bolts are seized. If they are not, then setting rear tracking and fore/aft camber is straightforward. If they are seized, it might be a very labour-intensive job - and hence expensive. A local garage would not take long to put your car on a ramp and check each adjuster bolt for free movement. This may be a worthwhile first step.

At present, I am setting up both fore and aft tracking and camber on my MX5, and finding that - as I expected - most of the bolts are seized in their bushes. I am having to use a sabre saw to cut them free prior to replacing with new. A pig of a job.

Have you thought of this alternative: Adjust the front tracking to compensate for the pull-to-the-left (or live with it if it is not excessive), and then resign yourself to buying tyres more frequently than before. If your mileage is not huge, this could be the cheapest option.

Last point is an interesting option. Mileage is around 5-6k miles per annum. Your comment resonates with the MB Main Dealer who said it can be one hour or as long as five hours - depends if the eccentric bolts are seized and I quickly totted that up into a large bill over £500 when parts are taken into consideration.

I have decided to put the replacement car option on hold - though my local dealer has a nice car. Emotions can get the better of us. Cars come and go. If I miss this one, I will find something else - without being in a rush.

I never like to be rushed into a purchase and would be more comfortable exploring what I really need after the E220 - another prestige car such as BMW (after 17 years with MB) or anothehr E-class brimming with technology in AMG Line Premium Plus form, or a down-to-earth daily driver such as a KIA Optima with overall lower cost of ownership. I have two fun cars for summer, so the costs of keeping a total of 4 cars on the road (one for the wife) is considerable but affordable (otherwise I would not do it).

The bug for me is the E class is old technology and the new cars are more crammed with goodies. But I looked at costs of replacement parts - the indy I spoke to about my current E-class told me likely servicing costs on the new 17 model E class I took a fancy too. Around £130 for 'A' Service and £250 for 'B' Service (+ VAT) which is gonna be around half that of the main dealer and as I use a Main Dealer it can be expensive.

Replacement pads and discs are around £350 per axle using genuine Merc parts (which they advise) but around £500 per axle at Main Dealer - through reduced labour costs at indy which I would not get for the newer model of E Class at Main Dealer.

Then I looked at tyres - Run Flats on 19" wheels are around £240 a tyre!

Then I looked at my current e class tyres - Good Year Efficient Grip premium tyres around £85 per tyre. £100 buys Michelin. But latterly I have had to change tyres due to age (sidewalls cracking not tread depth at 3mm) so I don't do Michelin any more having had to change two sets due to age with 5mm of tread! I use an alternative Premium tyre instead. I don't do budget tyres, believing they are false economy.
 
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cheshireE220

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Knackered suspension is also a fix that has to happen as it has already altered the handling and if the geometry is out it will wear tyres incredibly quickly.

I would be spending the money without hesitation in the local garage, you have clearly looked after the car and by having a full MB service history haven't scrimped, it has served you well and will continue to for another 138k, Rubber parts always wear out.

Just FYI the gearbox oil should be changed every 4 years after the initial change

I'm not sure about the last statement. The advice I was given was "at launch it was a lifetime fill (no change of ATF). Then MB changed their position and advised one change at 40-45k miles and none thereafter" (I think there were some issues of cross contamination of water in the cooling system entering the circulation for the oil cooler for the ATF - but I'm not certain. So I asked them to do a change at 100k miles - and it made it a lot better - a slight snatch between 1st and 2nd down and up shifts disappeared completely and to this day the car is silky smooth. They applied software reset and have done at each service and it is just so smooth and silky - but it is a slushy torque convertor auto - and that will always limit its capabilities for sporty performance. And the new 9-G tronic I believe is also a torque convertor box not a Dual Clutch (like the Porsche PDK box) so I guess that will also feel slushy as there is no friction clutch in it - but never driven on, so cant tell if it has the instant bite like the Porsche PDK box (which I have driven).

The ATF change might be every 4 years on some years/some models. But this is not the advice I was given. If it is a new recommendation, thanks for letting me know and I will consider another change for my car.
 

LostKiwi

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Yours is a 722.6 gearbox so ATF should be changed every 37500 miles.

If you want the tracking set up properly go to Wheels in Motion (apparently they have a Manchester based partner as WIM are Buckinghamshire).
They know how to correctly set up MB tracking. KwikFit are terrible. I put my r129 1993 500SL into KwikFit and they did the work then as I looked at the printout saw they'd set it up as an r230.
A discussion ensued claiming they couldn't set it up right as they didn't have the specs whereupon I asked to look at their book and pointed out it was under 500SL not SL500.
Back it went to be followed by a claim I'd need camber bolts on the front to which they were told all r129s came with them from the factory. In the end I stood with the guy and showed him how to do it.

http://nigellangsgarage.co.uk/ is the Northern place.
 
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mioba

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If you boil it back your rationale is that spending 500 odd quid on a car thats not worth that much.

I hate that line of argument.

Its a salesmans dream pitch.

I say go out and get an equivalent car for 500 quid.

Now go and get your car fixed.


Spending 20k on a newer car will still have age wear related components fail.

Do the math. spend 20k or 500 quid.
 

JBell

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The bug for me is the E class is old technology and the new cars are more crammed with goodies. But I looked at costs of replacement parts - the indy I spoke to about my current E-class told me likely servicing costs on the new 17 model E class I took a fancy too. Around £130 for 'A' Service and £250 for 'B' Service (+ VAT) which is gonna be around half that of the main dealer and as I use a Main Dealer it can be expensive.

This is the choice, a 3yo car does not need to go to a dealer, a good indy that has all the MB kit can do the same job for half the price, your service history will still be up to date on the MB portal so no issues, most indys use genuine MB parts so the saving is not paying £120 an hour in labour.

An example is the air filters in my car are £185 from my dealer, my indy charges £90!!!!!!

Replacement pads and discs are around £350 per axle using genuine Merc parts (which they advise) but around £500 per axle at Main Dealer - through reduced labour costs at indy which I would not get for the newer model of E Class at Main Dealer.

Now why would MB advise to use MB parts :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: MB don't make them, they are made by Pagid or Brembo which can be bought from ECP for well under £200 all in, no loss of quality and any garage can fit them in an hour or so.

You can also buy direct from Grangemouth MB who are a forum sponsor at excellent prices

Then I looked at tyres - Run Flats on 19" wheels are around £240 a tyre!

You don't have to put run flats on, you can change to normal tyres and put a can of "goop" in the boot, it will also improve the ride massively and cut the tyre cost.

Then I looked at my current e class tyres - Good Year Efficient Grip premium tyres around £85 per tyre. £100 buys Michelin. But latterly I have had to change tyres due to age (sidewalls cracking not tread depth at 3mm) so I don't do Michelin any more having had to change two sets due to age with 5mm of tread! I use an alternative Premium tyre instead. I don't do budget tyres, believing they are false economy.

GY Eff Grip are excellent and good value, the other one to look at is the Uniroyal RS5 which is incredible value for money (I use them).
 
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cheshireE220

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If you want the tracking set up properly go to Wheels in Motion (apparently they have a Manchester based partner as WIM are Buckinghamshire).They know how to correctly set up MB tracking.

http://nigellangsgarage.co.uk/ is the Northern place.

Thank you for this suggestion. I spoke to WIM and have booked the car in with them next week - even though it is a 360 mile round-trip for me! I was impressed with the gentleman I spoke to - he sounded as if he knew what he was talking about and furthermore he knew what he was doing. So far, I haven't felt that level of confidence with the people I have spoken to - and I include the MB Main Dealer and the MB Indy specialist (who wants me to/ pay to assess what it needs and then provide an estimate). I did not bother approaching my local garage - a cheap job done twice etc. and WIM are confident my car can be sorted in 90 minutes max. They could not understand how MB could take up to 5 hours to set the geometry - corroded camber bolts or not.

I was curious about Nigel Angs Garage in Bolton Lancashire, so I just spoke to them. Just to confirm
(a) they know of WIM (and spoke highly of them - someone called Tony is the go-to guy to speak to apparently)
(b) they are nothing to do with WIM and they are not a Manchester-based partner
(c) they are another independent outfit who offer a similar service to WIM but with extras such as servicing, MOTs etc.

I am looking forward to an early start next week and getting my car sorted by someone who seems to know what they are doing.
Fingers crossed.
 

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Thank you for this suggestion. I spoke to WIM and have booked the car in with them next week - even though it is a 360 mile round-trip for me! I was impressed with the gentleman I spoke to - he sounded as if he knew what he was talking about and furthermore he knew what he was doing. So far, I haven't felt that level of confidence with the people I have spoken to - and I include the MB Main Dealer and the MB Indy specialist (who wants me to/ pay to assess what it needs and then provide an estimate). I did not bother approaching my local garage - a cheap job done twice etc. and WIM are confident my car can be sorted in 90 minutes max. They could not understand how MB could take up to 5 hours to set the geometry - corroded camber bolts or not.

I was curious about Nigel Angs Garage in Bolton Lancashire, so I just spoke to them. Just to confirm
(a) they know of WIM (and spoke highly of them - someone called Tony is the go-to guy to speak to apparently)
(b) they are nothing to do with WIM and they are not a Manchester-based partner
(c) they are another independent outfit who offer a similar service to WIM but with extras such as servicing, MOTs etc.

I am looking forward to an early start next week and getting my car sorted by someone who seems to know what they are doing.
Fingers crossed.
Excellent stuff buddy , let us know how you get on !
 

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Tony Bones is the guy at WIM.

I went there with my car when it was fairly new. Although I also live in Cheshire I tied it in with a trip I had to make down South - facelift W203 are notorious for rolling on more lock depending on the road camber - and he reckoned it was pretty good but the front toe had been set in by a degree (which is quite a lot) which he thought might have been done on purpose to try and keep it straight.

I also had it checked a few year later at the Wheel Alighnment and Balljoint Centre in Liverpool - the owner there is reckoned to be good, but he was a little baffled by why the car didn't run right with the settings it had!

I was in a long contraflow on the M6 just the other day and sure enough the car did drift to the right.

It's always irritated me but I've just learned to live with it. Swapping the front tyres with each other over every year (do about 6K/yr) seems to help.


I'm in the same boat as you regarding spending money on my car. I'm minded that I'll lease something for £3-400/mth when I need to replace it, so I rationalise bills at the moment in terms of monthly lease cost. Just had a major service at an indie and that cost a month's lease - advantage with our cars is can be left 2yrs, the new ones are annual.
 
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cheshireE220

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Tony Bones is the guy at WIM.

I went there with my car when it was fairly new. Although I also live in Cheshire I tied it in with a trip I had to make down South - facelift W203 are notorious for rolling on more lock depending on the road camber - and he reckoned it was pretty good but the front toe had been set in by a degree (which is quite a lot) which he thought might have been done on purpose to try and keep it straight.

I also had it checked a few year later at the Wheel Alighnment and Balljoint Centre in Liverpool - the owner there is reckoned to be good, but he was a little baffled by why the car didn't run right with the settings it had!

I was in a long contraflow on the M6 just the other day and sure enough the car did drift to the right.

It's always irritated me but I've just learned to live with it. Swapping the front tyres with each other over every year (do about 6K/yr) seems to help.


I'm in the same boat as you regarding spending money on my car. I'm minded that I'll lease something for £3-400/mth when I need to replace it, so I rationalise bills at the moment in terms of monthly lease cost. Just had a major service at an indie and that a months lease - advantage with our cars is can be left 2yrs, the new ones are annual.

I called up again and discovered that it was Joe I was talking to. I could do tomorrow but he said he could not be available and he would like to work on my car himself following on from our chat yesterday. So it is booked in next week. I will try to meet Tony Bones when I am down there. WIM come highly recommended on the Maserati Forum. Yes, I own a Maserati as a summer car (and a Porsche Turbo), but that doesnt mean I don't shop around for value in maintenance and repairs. Around this part of the world, people have more money than sense and just pay extortionate prices for servicing at main dealers. Not me. The Maser is looked after by probably the best independent specialist there is in the UK - Autoshield Maserati in South Manchester. The Porsche is looked after at main dealer (not in Wilmslow) for servicing (the foxed price menu for servicing is a no-brainer and not worth losing the stamp for by switching to an indy - at least till now) and anything outside at a good indy up in Lancashire who know this model inside out.

I digress. The W211 is my daily workhorse. Not worth a lot as I mentioned when valued on WBAC. And its age is showing in terms of lack of technical sophistication and gadgetry. I am now looking to consolidate ownership by using a good indy (SPR Autos in Stockport come highly recommended - anybody used them and have feedback - please comment on here or private message me) as I have paid a lot through maintaining Main Dealer History for 17 years to keep the Mobilo warranty, which is not that valuable. In all these years, I have had to use it twice for broken coil strut at front (known issue) on separate occasions and numerous dead battery episodes after leaving the car for 4 weeks without trickle charger. The Porsche and Maserati are always on the trickle charger (CTEK). As we have 4 cars in the house, we have a personal breakdown cover policy that covers all cars - so questions the use of keeping Mobilo going - and they only take it to a Main Dealer where I'd get fleeced on prices!

I would like a 3-4 year old E220 AMG line Premium Plus spec car with less than 30k miles where someone else has taken a £25k hit in depreciation - but this level spec is rare (they are mainly base model SE or AMG line) as I want the digital dash and prices are around £25k - £27k approved used with 12 months warranty for a 66 plate-17 plate car.

My thinking is, if I'm gonna have another E-Class, get the spec I want and keep it for 10 years. I really like the S-Class but the budget is just a stretch too far (it is not about the purchase cost but the ownership costs). For example, that air suspension is notoriously expensive and prone to leaks on a 4 year car out of warranty - its expensive if it goes wrong (as I found out with the end-of-life SBS Control Unit on the W211).

With the current geometry issue, I'd rather fix my car, run it and take my time to source the spec and price of car in my budget - prices are falling all the time. The price is dropping more on the car I want to buy but not falling at all on my W211 which has hit the trough price now. I also want to research if I should branch out to some other marque after the W211. BMW appeals but seem too bland and basic alongside an E220 AMG Line Premium/Premium Plus. Audi A6 or A8 are too volume driven cars (less so the A8 - but similar price to S-Class and for me the S-Class is the one every time versus an A8).
 
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JBell

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Running a new E may not be cheap, some parts are hideously expensive (£1k for a headlight and god knows what those lovely digital dash panels cost should they go wrong) so it's sometimes not going to save you money. Having a dealer service your E so you keep mobile then paying for another breakdown policy doesn't make financial sense.

S Class are incredibly cheap (you can buy new ones for £44k) but as you will know with a £90k car you expect £90k running costs even when you pay £20k for it (ABC on the CL / SL is a prime example of this).

Fix your E and keep an eye out for the right car, you clearly are in no rush.
 
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cheshireE220

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South Cheshire
Your Mercedes
E220 CDI / 2003 / 2.2 turbo diesel
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Running a new E may not be cheap, some parts are hideously expensive (£1k for a headlight and god knows what those lovely digital dash panels cost should they go wrong) so it's sometimes not going to save you money. Having a dealer service your E so you keep mobile then paying for another breakdown policy doesn't make financial sense.

S Class are incredibly cheap (you can buy new ones for £44k) but as you will know with a £90k car you expect £90k running costs even when you pay £20k for it (ABC on the CL / SL is a prime example of this).

Fix your E and keep an eye out for the right car, you clearly are in no rush.

Yes, after 48 hrs of apparent panic sinking a few hundred Pounds into a car worth similar at WBAC valuation it was a jolt to the system! But with the views and thoughts shared on this forum, I have stood back and objectively made what I believe to be the right decision for me - get the car sorted and use it - until it blows up or has a major catastrophe like a gearbox strip and rebuild required. And then take time to consider the next car and choose a purchase on my terms and not driven by someone else's agenda to sell me a car.

I know better than most about the foolishness of buying a £100k car and trying to run it on the costs of running a £20k Ford Mondeo. The Porsche Turbo was £102k (the spec I have) and it requires deep pockets to keep it in pristine condition that enables one to enjoy it. Sadly too many of these great sports cars ar for sale at low-mid £30k's with exceptional mileages of 80k+ where the previous owner struggled to maintain it when the dreaded call came at service time after the health check on a list of advisories that were shelved and ignored. The following year the same and the list just got bigger and then in-between something went wrong so they fixed it up cheap and sold it on to the next unsuspecting gullible guy who finds out he needs the purchase price + £5k to sort out the deferred advisory issues. Then the turbos are reported as corroded and he breaks out into a sweat at £1k per Turbo + labour! And that's cheap - the original Porsche supplied new are £1800 or £2000 each! And there's two of 'em! I can imagine the gasp when the Air Suspension breaks down with leaks - at £1k per corner plus labour - thats a potential £5k bill on a car bought for £30k.

The LED headlights are not gonna be cheap. Same for the digital dash and the distronic/drive pilot. If it was not German, I'd question the reliability of the electronics - or maybe I am naive? But certainly, I am in no rush now to offload my very reliable car - it is silky smooth and never uses any oil between services - the mechanicals are just run-in!
 

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