1997 300td E-Class Estate - With Disappearing Subframe......

[Bubble18-30]

Hi Guys,

I'm a new guy to the forum after buying my first ever mercedes! (My Aunt recommended one, she has had Mercs all her life and loves them.)

Anyway, My W210 has 185000miles with a Merc Service History to 153, and a local garage between 153 to 175. I took it yesterday to my mercedes main dealer, Stratstone of Leeds for it's first service so i can re-kindle its merc service history. I was expecting a couple of non service repairs due to it's age and mileage, here's the quotation!

Brakes: Rear Flexi's and front o/s:£240

Mono Belt:£89

Oil Cooler Flexis from engine to cooler pipes: £157.87

Front Subframe AND Radiator Mount Corrosion and ALL bushes: £1743.80

Rear subframe and suspension links ALL gone: £1099.97

2 rear tyres.

OK. ish.

I'm not too fussed about the brake pipes, monobelt, bushes and oil cooler pipes - with the age and mileage they where expected. However the Front Subframe and Radiator Mount????? I would expect them to go on any car of this age at 10years old, not even a collendar of a Rover.

I've looked at various options and this is what i've come up with so far!

1) Local Indie dealers - i've got 2, Scotts Auto Tech in Leeds and Merc-Care in Leeds calling me back with pricing on Monday.

2) as i've already got the usual Merc rust on my arches, boot and bottom of the doors, a total body change. Me finding another W210, high mileage petrol or engine blown up (Unlikely) with a decent body and doing an engine swap.

3) Buy a new car. BMW 5 Series? - not as distinctive and classy. Merc C Class - out of the frying pan?

4) Subframe repair!

I've trawled this forum and other merc forums (Sorry!) to try and get some subframe info, There was a member on this forum that mentioned a subframe reapir could be carried out! I come onto the Forum today to ask for some help/advice and contacts if thats ok?

- Does anyone know if the subframe / radiator mount can be repaired in general?

- How hard is it to change out the bushes at the front and rear (I'm guessing the rear subframe would have to be dropped out)

- Also how hard is the DIY on a monobelt?

I've been fixing previous cars for a "spare time" 10years now, i last tried to replace the suspension bushes on a VW Polo (I drilled them out but could not get the new ones in!) i've never tried to replace any belt more than a 2 point alternator belt (Easy) And never dropped a subframe out! Not even on my old Mini!

All your help/advice and even recommendations for garages in the yorkshire area would be greatly appreciated! I have to drive it to the south of france on 20/12/2007!!!!!!

 

[Uncle Benz]

I have repaired a couple of the front suspension crossmembers for customers. They usually rot out only on the bottom flat face. Provided that your corrosion is limited to this part of the subframe, it is a quick and easy repair for any competent welder. It can all be done in situ, so no labour costs for dismantling!!

 

[Parrot of Doom]

You'll get a much better price for that from an indie. If you're handy, you can do a lot of that work yourself to save even more money, things like the brakes, belt, oil cooler pipes, all fairly accessible.

The radiator mount corrosion is probably this part?

The front suspension crossmember is the black component to the left, that runs under the oil sump. You can see the oil cooler pipe between the two.

Thats how I found mine. Now it was a fair bit rusty and looking a bit sorry for itself, but it was in no danger of falling apart - yours may well be the same. I just got my wire brush drill attachment out, cleaned it up, rustproofed it, and painted it with POR15. It'll be fine for another 5 years minimum. The oil cooler is just above that, the oil cooler drops down easily, only 2 bolts and out she comes.

It all rusts easily down there because Mercedes didn't see fit to rustproof things properly, but also because drainage is quite poor. You can improve drainage simply by drilling a few small holes in each of the three plastic undertrays that protect the underside of the car.

If the rust is bad where you've mentioned, then I strongly urge you to check the front suspension spring cups. They are a notorious weakpoint on these cars. Basically the top spring cup is spot welded to the chassis, and then covered with mastic to seal. Sometimes water gets behind the mastic, rusting the cup away, only you can't see it as the mastic hides it all from view. The result is the cup eventually tears off the chassis and that side of the suspension collapses. I have never heard of a case where its happened while driving, all the cases I've read of have been while the car is parked up, or turning a tight corner at very low speed. Don't worry, the fix is just a new spring cup (they're very cheap) rivetted to the chassis, nothing disasterous.

This is what a bad one looks like - it isn't mine!

Other things you should consider doing (all DIY jobs):

Check condition of fuel pipes around fuel pump, the seals leak with age (very easy job)
Change ATF, filter and gasket, use MB ATF only
Coolant flush (dead easy on these cars)
Any knocking on the front suspension will be the anti roll bar links, very cheap and easy DIY job, I'm doing it next week so I'll add it to the DIY section
Check the ball joints, mine had gone at that age


Don't be afraid to use the MB dealer for all your parts, they're not that expensive in that regard, although there are good alternatives so always ask here first (MAF is a good example).

They're great cars these. Mine has 197,000 on the clock, just done 300 miles today, quiet as a mouse and so much grunt its easy to pass anyone you like

 

[robs-mbz]

Parrot of Doom, I'm absolutely horrified that you say "the fix is just a new spring cup (they're very cheap) rivetted to the chassis, nothing disasterous".

Rivetted, with what? Even the three spot welds that MB use are, in my mind barely sufficient. I fitted two replacement cups myself to my W210, yes they are very cheap, even from the MB main agents. I spot welded them as per original then welded a continuous run around the complete cup. A good soaking in Waxoyl means they are going to outlast the car!

The one thing to be learnt here is you can save an absolute fortune by doing some work yourself, £240 to replace flexible hoses, £157 for the cooler pipes! these are both jobs that I've done and most of us could do for ourselves if we are just prepared to get our hands dirty! The subframe would be an easy repair for anyone with a little welding skill as they only rot on the bottom face due to poor drainage from the under tray.

Track rod ends and ball joints are also an easy DIY fix, no different to those on Fords, Vauxhalls or Jap cars.

Have a go guys, think of the money you can save as well as the satisfaction of knowing that the jobs been done properly!

 

[Parrot of Doom]

Parrot of Doom, I'm absolutely horrified that you say "the fix is just a new spring cup (they're very cheap) rivetted to the chassis, nothing disasterous".

Rivetted, with what? Even the three spot welds that MB use are, in my mind barely sufficient.

Well considering the welds only break because of rust, I'd say they're more than sufficient. I've checked mine, they're perfect.

 

[robs-mbz]

What sort of rivets are you talking about? You can't get to the other side of the inner wing because its a box section, the only rivets you could use would be pop rivets! To say that they are sufficient is crazy, they would'nt pass an MOT even if they lasted long enough to get to the test station! The only safe way to fix new cups is by welding.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

I'm only repeating what I've read on other forums. Perhaps they are also welded in place as well as the rivets. Mine are fine so I haven't investigated further.

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=182420&highlight=spring+perch+rivet

 

[Parrot of Doom]

And here is the replacement part:

 

[robs-mbz]

That looks like the spring cup with part of the inner wing too, the spring cups I fitted were just the cup itself (genuine Mercedes part) which fitted no problem, I suspect you would fit the inner wing and cup if the corrosion was quite extensive, that would be a horrendous job, wing off and everything inside the engine bay on the inner wing would have to be removed too. When I cut off the corroded spring cup on my car all I had to do was to clean up the inner wing before fitting the new part, there was only surface rust on the inner wing, guess I was lucky, if the rot had spread to the inner wing I would have been horrified!

 

[robs-mbz]

Part 71 on here -http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.asp?TP=1&F=210025&M=606%2E962&GA=722%2E608&CT=F&cat=45P&SID=62&SGR=030&SGN=02

 

[robs-mbz]

And heres the price, cheap or what!

http://www.mercedes-benz-parts.co.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&keyword=+a2106260119+&Search=Go&page=shop.browse

 

[Bubble18-30]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the advice! On My last MOT it failed on the offside springcup starting to come away from the inner wing, it was cleaned up and seam welded back on so hey presto!

In relation to the riviting of spring cups my local MOT garage (Been using them for years) asked Merc and Vosa about rivets, Merc stated that riveting the cup back on was a safe way of doing it! And funny enough Vosa agreed - likely because they didn't know any better or couldn't be bothered spending the money to find out..............

I enclose some "pics of destruction" of my subframe / radiator mount when i had a look at it earlier.....

 

[Bubble18-30]

Looking at the Rad Mount i think it's likely beyond repair, it's not just the plate at the bottom, but the side wall of the structure on both ends that have gone.

However, the possibly good news is that the front subframe "beam" is only rusted on the bottom plate and slightly onto the rim where the bottome plate attaches. There is no rust on either end where the trailing arms attach! i should think that my welder may be able to just weld another plate on and gunk the whole think up with anti-rust treatment and waxoyl.

Has anybody tried to fit bushes before on either the front of rear?

 

[robs-mbz]

Well, I'm amazed! I've been working as an engineer (industrial rather than automotive) for over 30 years and over that time have developed an 'eye' for bad (and good) engineering practice. I simply cannot believe that riveting of the spring cups would be anything like satisfactory but if Mercedes gives it the ok then I suppose it must be fine. I'm still glad that mine are welded though, I just wouldn't rest if I thought that the ones on my car were fitted by any other means!
It would be interesting however to discover the method used by MB to rivet them on, as I said, the rear of the inner wing that the cups are mounted on is inaccessible because it is a box section, the only possible way of riveting would be some kind of 'pop' rivet, if there are any MB technicians out there who may have used this method of attachment, please explain it, I would love to hear it!

 

[Parrot of Doom]

The two pipes in the first photograph carry ATF from the radiator. One of them is very wet. Looks to me like you may have a leak around there.

You should check the banjo bolts where those pipes attach to the radiator. The top one is behind a small circular piece of plastic, at the side of the driver's headlight as you look at the front of the car (pop it out with a screwdriver). The bottom one can be accessed by dropping the oil cooler a few inches, and then looking through the tow-hook hole in the bumper.