2002 W211 E270 CDI NON START AFTER COPPER WASHER CHANGE

enes

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Hi All,

I have a E270 CDI with new copper injector washers fitted. there is compression as seals seem air tight. 3 injectors had tiny balls missing which I bought (ceramic not sure if it makes a difference between steel but I was told this injector takes the ceramic ones) and they fit well so injectors should be ok. the other 2 had not been opened up at all. it has no sign of firing up and the error on the scanner states low fuel pressure. this car was working perfectly before but it has not been cranked for 3 months and had been sitting for 6 months prior (ran at idle at 1-2 week intervals during this period).

The car cranks but no sign of firing up, it burns up the easy start but does not start up.

I have topped up diesel above 1/4 tank. It does not start with easy start.

Any suggestions?

Fuel filter was changed 2 years ago (4000 miles ago).
 
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Steve@Avantgarde

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So 1 basic question to start with...

Have you measured the fuel pressure at the lift pump and then at the rail and if so, what is it?
 
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Hi Steve,

thanks for your reply. I have not been able to As I do not have the diagnostic tool anymore.

I have topped up and have half a tank full of diesel to no avail.

I can think of 2 causes the injectors as the solenoids were opened to pull the injectors out and diesel contamination due to the car being stationary for a long time.

Do you think there may be any other?

I will try to get my hands on a diagnostics machine and will change the fuel filter in the mean time it has been sitting for a while and has high mileage on the clock.

the only error that came up was low fuel pressure
 

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You cant go forward without knowing the fuel pressure.

Is the lift pump delivering fuel to the engine? And if so is the high pressure pump giving enough pressure for the car to start.

Common rail diesel non starts are simple, as long as you follow the procedure and not guess, which is what you are doing. Listen to the advice you get and you will be successful.
 
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Hi,

Fuel does come to the injectors, I had physically checked this before. So, all I need to find out is the actual fuel pressure?
 

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You couls also do a leak test to injectors (during cranking), to ensure that repaired (and why not old) injectors are not leaking too much... pics in forum I think (I have linked few times)
 

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That is not measuring the fuel pressure. Opening a CDI system causes the pressure to drop and you introduce more air = more non start issues. It does not also guarantee fuel is pressuring in the rail either.

If you havent got the kit to measure the fuel pressure then I would seek someone who has. Doing a leak off test would be the next test after the fuel pressure tests.

Like I said, you need to follow procedure, you can ignore my advice if you like, but you will spend more money and take more time to fix it by guessing.
 
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Steve, i am aware that you know what you are talking about on this subject, but i cant help but think there is a little more to this than we realise. the OP says in post #1 that the car does NOT start with easy start. surely if it were a fuel pressure issue, the car would start, even if only momentarily, on easy start, would it not? or am i missing something here?
 

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Steve, i am aware that you know what you are talking about on this subject, but i cant help but think there is a little more to this than we realise. the OP says in post #1 that the car does NOT start with easy start. surely if it were a fuel pressure issue, the car would start, even if only momentarily, on easy start, would it not? or am i missing something here?

If it had fuel pressure the easy start would fire the engine into life. The easy start becomes an ignition process. IE if there isnt enough fuel pressure to start the engine say 80 bar, then there isnt enough fuel and air mix to compress to fire the engine into life. If easy start ignites what it has then it will automatically pull more fuel through making the engine run. Or if there is a poor spray pattern from the injectors, it will ignite the dumped fuel.

The fact it wont even run with easy start says to me straight away, there is no fuel pressure, not an ounce. So you need to determine if that is because the lift pump or electric fuel pump if its CDI3 is not delievering the fuel to the engine or is the high pressure pump not pressuring what it has to the rail and then to the injectors.

So measuring the fuel pressure is the first place, and very basic place to start.

If you think I am wrong, then feel free to advise differently, but there are no facts to suggest there is any fuel pressure at the rail.
 
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"3 injectors had tiny balls missing which I bought (ceramic not sure if it makes a difference between steel but I was told this injector takes the ceramic ones) and they fit well so injectors should be ok. the other 2 had not been opened up at all."

I think the problem lies here, get a test done, you may have faulty injectors after you split them.
 

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If it had fuel pressure the easy start would fire the engine into life. The easy start becomes an ignition process. IE if there isnt enough fuel pressure to start the engine say 80 bar, then there isnt enough fuel and air mix to compress to fire the engine into life. If easy start ignites what it has then it will automatically pull more fuel through making the engine run. Or if there is a poor spray pattern from the injectors, it will ignite the dumped fuel.

The fact it wont even run with easy start says to me straight away, there is no fuel pressure, not an ounce. So you need to determine if that is because the lift pump or electric fuel pump if its CDI3 is not delievering the fuel to the engine or is the high pressure pump not pressuring what it has to the rail and then to the injectors.

So measuring the fuel pressure is the first place, and very basic place to start.

If you think I am wrong, then feel free to advise differently, but there are no facts to suggest there is any fuel pressure at the rail.

Steve, im sorry if you think that i may have implied that you may be wrong, but i did not and that was certainly not my intention. as i said, i am aware that you know what you are talking about. i have never encountered this problem before on a cdi but engines i have had starting issues with would usually, if you were brave enough to spray it in there, run on nothing other than the easy start, hence my query. we have a van at work (iveco) with a similar thing going on, spray brake cleaner into the intake, it fires, and runs until the brake cleaner is burned off then stops.
it was for no other reason than that being in my head that made me ask the question.
 
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Steve@Avantgarde

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Steve, im sorry if you think that i may have implied that you may be wrong, but i did not and that was certainly not my intention. as i said, i am aware that you know what you are talking about. i have never encountered this problem before on a cdi but engines i have had starting issues with would usually, if you were brave enough to spray it in there, run on nothing other than the easy start, hence my query. we have a van at work (iveco) with a similar thing going on, spray brake cleaner into the intake, it fires, and runs until the brake cleaner is burned off then stops.
it was for no other reason than that being in my head that made me ask the question.

No problem Pete!

It is likely running on easy start but he hasnt sprayed enough in the air system to make it run on long enough and neither would I advise him try it either. Easy start/brake cleaner in effect is a volatile fuel in its own right which burns very rapidly in a diesel engine.
 

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totally agree. in fact, slightly OT but related in a way, the Iveco im having trouble with is common rail also, and my next thought was fuel pressure on it (occasionally it will start but VERY rarely) but when i looked up the pressure it seems INSANELY high. info online says 300mpa pressure. now id never really heard of mpa so converted it online. apparently thats 3000 bar. yes 3k bar! now i know these things run at high pressure, but by my rough calculations thats 45k psi! surely its not THAT high a pressure, is it?
 
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I can do both as I do not have the diagnostics scanner atm. I will do a leak off too to see what comes of it. The main variable in this whole process was the removal of the injectors. There was only a few litres of fuel and this has been diluted with around 3.5 gallons of diesel.

I reopened the 3 suspected injectors and one had the ball out of its seat the other had the seat on the side and not on the pilot valve. Not sure what the state is atm since I put them back in so a leak off test can provide some info in the meantime
 

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Im not sure what commercial engines fuel system pressures run at as I have never worked on anything bigger than a V8 diesel that isnt MB. Rail pressures in MBs are around 300bar....You sure that information and or calculations are correct?
 

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I can do both as I do not have the diagnostics scanner atm. I will do a leak off too to see what comes of it. The main variable in this whole process was the removal of the injectors. There was only a few litres of fuel and this has been diluted with around 3.5 gallons of diesel.

I reopened the 3 suspected injectors and one had the ball out of its seat the other had the seat on the side and not on the pilot valve. Not sure what the state is atm since I put them back in so a leak off test can provide some info in the meantime

If your injectors had high leak off, it would start with easy start and then run on its own fuel pressure.....within seconds.

Again, and I will make this so clear and I wont bang the drum again...

A diesel engine will not run if it has insufficient fuel pressure. It needs to compress fuel and air at a combustable rate, no fuel pressure = no start.

You do no know if you have fuel pressure, so checking or revisiting anything else is futile at present. I once had a high pressure pump go down on me after replacing an injector. Completely unrelated which left me scratching my head until the fuel pressure gauge went on it. You could have the same situation. Doing what you are doing will send you around in circles. Trust me.
 
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Yes Steve I think you are right. I do not have the diagnostics machine but the only reason I was saying what I was saying was because nothing was touched apart from the injectors.

However, one other point is that before this repair, at kickdown the car would go into limp mode and once restarted would be fine. I thought this was due to the compression loss from injector washers but it may well be a clogged filter, lift pump or HP pump.

At the moment, I can't measure anything as I do not have the tool and possibly not until the next few days.

Any other things I would need to check till then?
 

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Injector may leak so heavily (for example due to some error in assembly, another tiny ball missing or misaligned etc.) that it will not able to keep pressure high enough even easy start helps it start...

3000bar is max. pressure in some common rail system, it might reach that if control valve is playing up and main relief valve is only one controlling the pressure.

OP could double check connectors/contacts of all injectors, engine with solenoid injectors usually cuts out all injection if open circuit in one injector.

Fuel lines from hp pumps were not removed during injector replacement? Thats most common reason why engine won't start after o-ring replacement ;)
 
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If there was an open circuit injector would it not come up on diagnostics?

Also, I done a resistance check on the solenoids and they were all very similar

Yes, Fuel lines from hp pump were removed during injector replacement, what difference would this make?
 
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Steve@Avantgarde

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You need a fuel pressure gauge as well as the diagnostic machine. The diagnostic machine wont measure the lift pump...although you could assume if the rail has 150bar or greater when cranking the lift pump is doing its job.
 

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