'95 W124 E280 Overheating

SNST

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TE124/1995/M104
This problem has been getting worse over the last 2 weeks:

Overheats at low-medium engine speeds. Running down a long hill in neutral at 40ish, temp rises towards 120°C. Increase revs to 4000, temp comes down in less than 30 secs and may well drop to less than 80°C for a while.

I've just run at idle from cold. At 100°C+ the top hose is not hot along all its length & rad header is cool. So - no or very little circulation.

New cap & T/stat. Passes the carrot test (with flying colours!)
Slight leak in expansion tank (to be replaced v. soon)
There was some leakage in heater matrix (steamy windows) so I used radweld maybe 18 months ago.

There is some squeaking from area of water pump/steering pump, but I haven't identified the source yet.

Can the rotor on the pump fail or become very inefficient?

I'll test the new t/stat, but if you suggest water pump, there are several makes. Any recommendations or bad experiences?

Any advice would be very welcome!
 

rapide

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1997 E230 (no rust) 2016 volvo xc60 r/design. se. lux. nav.
rising temps

Hi. I think you could be on the right track with the pump. take it off and have look at the impellar it could be eroded away or come free of the shaft etc. replace if so . merc or pattern. check prices. But stop all leaks as well! all the best Rap.
 

daz250

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1995 e280 estate e300td 1998 estate, 2004 aventgaurde estate
hi, sound like water pump been down that route myself , i tried a pattern part pump no good i would defo go for a original part bit of money but that is the way to go, good luck
 
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SNST

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Thanks for your replies so far. More comments will be welcome!
I'll keep you posted about progress.

I'll check the stat first & if that is OK, I'll try the KWP product, not the Circoli version.
The MB dealer price is at least 2x KWP, 3x Circoli.
 

Bolide

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BMW 525 Diesel Touring
Most E280 and E320 W124s I see have had the water pump replaced by now. It seems to be something that fails at this kind of age

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk
 

kth286

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if not losing any coolant then not likely to be the pump, as they normally leak.

you should know that the pump is a big job on this engine and very awkward to get access to holding bolts without very thin extension and wobblies. Something like a 6 hour job.

Various pumps on this series of engines so important to give full VIN to Merc parts dept.

I would not fit aftermarket pump.
 

Alex Crow

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W169, W124, w202, W203, KTM 250 EXC, VW T25 camper and a Polo in a pear tree
i agree with all david says above - other than the aftermarket pump comment (never had a problem with KWP and have fitted a great many over the last 15 years or so).

these pumps are almost invariably changed when they start to leak, and impeller problems are unknown to me on the 104 engine. i did discuss this briefly with SNST yesterday, but the subject of why he wanted to change the pump did not come up. i also warned of difficulty of fitting and sourcing the correct pump.

as for the overheating, does the viscous fan hub work? is the radiator core hot across ANY of its tubes? if so then you must suspect some tubes are blocked - far more likely on this engine, rusty looking coolant would be a clue...
 
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SNST

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Hi,

David & Alex, thanks for the point about reliable impellors.
I have fitted a new expansion tank & the problem has reduced significantly.
Perhaps there is a small leak through pump glands - next check, together with core tube temperatures!

I see there are some differences in the pumps. KWP do 2 variations, 10580, 10661. The former has the rear small flange drilled out, the latter doesn't.
Both seem to have pipe outlets in the right places.
Any comments on the other variations?

The reason for questioning the pump was that the cooling suddenly became effective when engine revs increased to about 4000, though the fan seems to be effective and the electric fans don't pull the overtemp down.

By the way, head skimmed 20k ago & I haven't bought the pump yet!

Thanks for the help.

Simon
 

television

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Was not there an era where the pumps had plastic impellers and this was the main fault with them
 
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SNST

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Plastic impellors

Malcolm, Thanks for that suggestion. I thought that plastic impellors were used at some time. Any idea when?

The problem persists. I've used a flushing agent but no change.

Warmed up and then ran for a few miles this morning using revs to less than 3000 (temp 80-100), drained rad and noticed water stone cold for first 1-2litres.

Re-filled , watched temp rise. Ran to 4000rpm for a short while. Watched temp fall. Drained again, 1st drainings warm-hot.

I'm tryng to find a thermocouple to test the tube temperatures.

Symptoms could suggest:
1. Inadequate flow at low revs - pump impellor fail
2 Several tubes blocked so need greater pressure difference to get water flowing.

So it could be either radiator or pump. Or can you suggest anything else?

Simon
 

television

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Sadly it is no longer possible to see if the water is being pumped around.

My water pump failed at 20k miles on my 124 from new.

The most common faults are the rad gets blocked in the center, and insufficient hot air passes through it to trigger the thermo coupler for the engine fan.

Thermo fans cut in at around 3º C after the thermostat has opened.

Your thermostat opens around 87º c so the engine fan should speed up just after this temp, you can here the click when it cuts in,, once in, it should chop up a carrot
 

grober

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Partially blocked radiator [ maybe with radweld!!] as suggested. A lot easier DIY to change than a water pump!
 
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SNST

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Malcolm,

The main fan is visco & cuts carrots well!

The electric fans cut in as they should but have limited effect.
If the engine is working hard with revs less than 3000, the temp rises towards 120. Turning the heating on inside reduces the temp (while we bake!)

Knocking down to 2nd/3rd with revs above 4000 brings the temp down smartly, probably to 80-90C.

Graeme,

Does reverse flushing ever help if use of a radflush-type product has failed?

Thanks both!

Simon
 

television

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If the visco cuts in then not the rad I think and the water pump must be at fault,,Thats what I think
 

grober

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I would simply go for new radiator. The old one might backflush but again you have no way of judging how effective this has been till you try it again. If its the first replacement radiator in 15 years its not owe you anything! At worst you have eliminated one possible fault in the future and the car is more reliable than before. [ no transmission heat exchanger failure due to rust] be sure to give the whole system a good flush before fitting.
 

television

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I would simply go for new radiator. The old one might backflush but again you have no way of judging how effective this has been till you try it again. If its the first replacement radiator in 15 years its not owe you anything! At worst you have eliminated one possible fault in the future and the car is more reliable than before. [ no transmission heat exchanger failure due to rust] be sure to give the whole system a good flush before fitting.

In all fairness grober we have had a lot of rads fail this year on both the 124 and 140 and 124 cars, so is the time up after all these years
 

teddycatkin

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Your best bet now ---remove radiator and reverse flush it --if its still there fit a new pump!
 

grober

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In all fairness grober we have had a lot of rads fail this year on both the 124 and 140 and 124 cars, so is the time up after all these years
Sorry Malcolm don't quite understand what you mean? I am suggesting a new radiator as a possible solution which will convey other benefits if it turns out the problem lies elsewhere.
 

television

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Sorry Malcolm don't quite understand what you mean? I am suggesting a new radiator as a possible solution which will convey other benefits if it turns out the problem lies elsewhere.

I was agreeing with you, and just saying that there have been a lot of blocked rads this year on the forum
 

grober

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Cheers Malcolm, thought that's what you meant. Just checking in case I had missed something obvious.:Oops:
 

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