advanced driving licence

[SLinKyjoe]

Cant agree that 4 x 4 dont drive fast - come and join the cheshire set with their range rovers, the school run is more like LeMans! and they cant see where they are going or stick to a lane.

We do limit youngsters to lower power cars, because insurance is so expensive, however that just means that too many of them dont bother, or they drive company cars. If the government was really keen to save lives they would limit engine power for the novice drivers and require a further test to move up. My daughter had a class mate at 17 with an Audi TT, that seemed madness to me.

Mark.

you have a point about 4x4 drivers...but you will notcie they cant drive which is why they shouldnt be driving anything....the nanny states will of course remove all 4x4 from everywhere, then start on cars with bigger engines than 2l, then turbo jobs, then anything else they need to get banned to fullfill their meaningless lives.

drivers of 4x4 are not causing anyone any problems....bad drivers are...

seeing as most are agreeing with this point do you think we should start a bad drivers off the road campaign?

 

[jules335500]

Mate at work last week lost a good friend on a motor cycle as a 84 year old man ..not local turned and drive up the wrong side of a bypass and hit my mates friend on his fireblade.killed him instantly and the old man didnt even get a bruise but has been arrested for bad driving.
He could of wipded out a whole family.............believe at certain ages a retest is a must.
Speed doent help in accidents but its mainly a combination of factors prior to the accident.
lack of police on the roads doesnt help either and these new ****** mobile cameras are a conn...........

 

[SLinKyjoe]

i once remarked that everyone who reaches the age of 60 should be terminated and this should be revoked in around 24years time....however i was told it was a bit harsh.

would have helped your mate tho.....and the pensions crisis...and who is gonna miss the free tv licence?

 

[flagstaff]

i'm a firm believer in karting as a pre- (and post-) driving teaching aid. for kids, it teaches the basic physics of the automobile. for those already driving, it has endless possibility for teaching refinement of both style and control. i'm talking 100cc - 125cc 2-stroke stuff here: nothing concentrates the mind better than reaching sixty miles and hour in a few short seconds, sitting an inch off the deck ... and this is before you reach the corners ... driving well is all about judgment, in my opionion. for a few lucky folk this is innate; for (most of) the rest it can be learnt. here's to karts on the NHS!!!??!!

 

[tom7035]

Very interesting thread indeed. I have been a member of the IAM since 1967, and also hold the Police Class 1 Advanced Driving Certificate (which is the most searching test of driving ability ever devised). I really am taking exception to the view some members here are taking of 'older' drivers. One can absorb all the theoretical drivel there is but there is NO substitute for experience built upon a firm foundation. Acquiring this firm foundation is the problem for young drivers. I give credit to anyone who submits themself for IAM or other advanced training or testing and pass or fail, at least it shows they have a keen interest in their level of driving ability, or even lack of it. CONCENTRATION is the key word, followed by OBSERVATION and ANTICIPATION and always with a great degree of CONSIDERATION. Always remember, accidents DO NOT just happen - they are ALWAYS CAUSED!
As for sitting beside a racing driver on the public highway, I reserve judgement! Two entirely different skills. Being close to Knockhill racing circuit up here I know a few highly skilled track enthusiasts who would run a mile from a basic driving test!
SLinKyjoe, please don't terminate me!
P.S. And yes, Insurance discount IS available for IAM members, which was the question earlier.

 

[SLinKyjoe]

no termination required...good point and well done for giving us an answer.

old and young and middle aged drivers can be bad...the worst drivers i find, are those who think they are good and dont belive they can learn more. Try asking what the definition of a good driver is and the chances are you will get replies based around what the replier thinks he or she is.

we can all learn and we should accept that. we should also make sure we can keep up with todays driving. I do not accept that being taught 40years ago allows you to say, if i was good enough then i am still good enough today.

I do belive police drivers are classified as professional drivers? it amuses me when people who get done for speeding always say to the policeman (or more likely they say they said it to them) well you must have been speeding to catch me! it seems they need to get off from being caught. if you get caught you pay the penalty, may as well smile and think of all the times you got away with it.

 

[tom7035]

A wee point re. speed limits. They are not there to curb the speed of a RESPONSIBLE driver, but the general cross-section of drivers - and the analogy there is like driving in convoy, the speed of the convoy has to match the slowest vehicle, i.e. they are there to curb the speed of the poorest drivers.

 

[lordylawks]

Very interesting thread indeed. I have been a member of the IAM since 1967, and also hold the Police Class 1 Advanced Driving Certificate (which is the most searching test of driving ability ever devised). I really am taking exception to the view some members here are taking of 'older' drivers. One can absorb all the theoretical drivel there is but there is NO substitute for experience built upon a firm foundation. Acquiring this firm foundation is the problem for young drivers. I give credit to anyone who submits themself for IAM or other advanced training or testing and pass or fail, at least it shows they have a keen interest in their level of driving ability, or even lack of it. CONCENTRATION is the key word, followed by OBSERVATION and ANTICIPATION and always with a great degree of CONSIDERATION. Always remember, accidents DO NOT just happen - they are ALWAYS CAUSED!
As for sitting beside a racing driver on the public highway, I reserve judgement! Two entirely different skills. Being close to Knockhill racing circuit up here I know a few highly skilled track enthusiasts who would run a mile from a basic driving test!
SLinKyjoe, please don't terminate me!
P.S. And yes, Insurance discount IS available for IAM members, which was the question earlier.

Tom was my father's name also. He passed on just two weeks ago aged 84 and was driving up unitl around a month ago using the same techniques he had acquired when gaining his Police Class 1 Advanced Driving Certificate back in the 60's and was, 'til the end, one of the best drivers I have ever had the pleasure to sit beside. His running commentary on road conditions, threats, position etc were fascinating - a skill I still marvel at. He went on to become one of the best accident investigators in the Met Police and taught me most all I know about driving though not all he knew. I believe all learning to drive should be taught the key skills of CONCENTRATION OBSERVATION and ANTICIPATION before they are let near a full driving license and once learned they are not forgotten.

Regards the racing driver, his journey mostly didn't approach the speeds I usually drive at but he kept a much higher average speed through corners, there are lots on this road, with less harsh braking than I did and that reminded me of my fathers way with driving - seemingly effortless, minimal fuss and incredibly focussed.

As I said originally, it is in order to become the best driver I can that I would like to get further tuition - both on the track and on the road. Ideally, however, I would like to be able to take the same course Police Class 1 drivers undertake but I don't believe that is possible n civvy street - unless you know different?

Regardless, great contribution Tom and thanks from both me and my late father.

 

[tom7035]

Sadly, not possible lordylawks. I quite understand your admiration for the manner in which your dad drove. Once trained in the method it is NEVER forgotten, believe me! All credit to you for your desire to become a better driver and always pass on what you learned from your dad whenever possible. You would appear to be an ideal IAM test candidate!
Good luck, Tom.

 

[SLinKyjoe]

it may be possible if you can find an ex-police driver who may be doing advance tecniques for drivers. I dont know of any off hand but i do recall seeing a tv prog with some ex-police driver helping others improve. I dont think you will get a recognised test but it will certianly help.

maybe someone will help out by letting us know.

 

[peterchurch]

My daughter had a class mate at 17 with an Audi TT, that seemed madness to me.
Mark.

Its not mad at all. I had three crashes in 106/saxo sized cars in a space of a few years and I know what I would rather have my child driving I was a passenger in one when a bollard jumped out and bit a chunk out of the bonnet in heavy rain (on my side as well). I had a drunken arsenal fan rip a door off my Girlfriends car and a month later I was being let out of a side turning and a prick in a fiat over took the van and ripped the front off the car
My childrens first cars will be S500s they are build like a tank and have enough power to scare the living daylights out of you if you try and act like an arse. It also removes the need for speed mentality because you are spending most of the time reigning the car in.
Small cars with small engines can give a pleasing engine tone when thrashed hard. So a 17 year old will thrash them.
Large cruiser class engines take much more abuse before they give the same pleasing tone (but by then you are doing over a 100mph) so you stop trying to thrash them and just cruise. My Girlfriend used to be a speedfreek then I bought her a T5 volvo (267bhp and enough torque to pull a train) and she stopped speeding overnight.

 

[mlc]

Peter, agree completely that bigger cars give more protection, but a TT is not a bigger car, its just a very fast one. I remember in the late 80's a senior Ford exec let his 18 year old use his new scorpio cosworth, which he crashed on the first night and killed all four of his mates in the car, which i think proves my point.

Mark.

 

[tom7035]

Lordylawks: Make contact with your nearest IAM or RoSPA group. They will be only too pleased to advise.

 

[jon_harley]

y
drivers of 4x4 are not causing anyone any problems....bad drivers are...

4x4 drivers in cities are causing a big problem for cyclists... that's what some of my biking friends are telling me. It used to be just the occasional van that was too wide to pass a cyclist and couldn't easily see a cyclist on their nearside... now every third car is a 4x4 and they're forcing cyclists off the roads in fear of their lives.

 

[jberks]

Horses for courses I guess, but as a 19 year old, I would take great pleasure blasting GTIs away in my dad's shiny new 420SE. (fast v8 tank if ever there was one) Once outdragged a mates new golf GTI through country lanes in it and nudged 135 on the single carriageway A61 (Harewood).

I had a Viva at the time and managed to get that out of shape quite often (not especially difficult in a Viva). But the speeds involved were never life threatening and I was only allowed the merc occasionally. I even had my mums 318 sideways a few times. I was a far better driver than any of my mates (by their own admission - Driving cars at 14, test passed 17 + 1 month etc) but I am not naive enough to think I am in one piece due to my great skill - luck played a far greater part.

The point is that most teenagers have more confidence than ability and will push the car nearer and nearer the limit until it bites back. I'd rather a car bit them back at 70 than 140! I don't agree that given a faster car they will respect it, more likely they will spend much of the time proving how fast it is to their mates and burning others off.

My E handles well and with the electronics its almost impossible to get out of shape, but on occasions that I have really pushed it, i have been aware that the limit is now so high, once crossed, its very unlikely I will be able to catch it. An inexperienced 17 year old will have no chance.

Its rather academic though. My dad offered me the choice between my 1300 escort and the 280E (123) he was jobbing in. One day with the merc and I handed it back - lovely car but the fuel costs would have bankrupted me inside a month! - in any case the escort would outdrag the sheds most of my mates had.

 

[mlc]

Have to agree with everything that Jberks says. I especially love the "more confidence than ability" bit.

The bottom line of this agrument is that the average driver is no more skilled today than 30 years ago but the cars are so much more powerful. Whilst the cars that most of us are driving have lots of safety features the car that the average 17 year old can afford doesnt. The safety feature that kept us alive was lack of power, but in the main that feature has been removed.

I was at the MB dealers yesterday and saw the new AMG SLK, 0 - 60 in 4 and a bit seconds. In 20 odd years when I have grandchildren learning to drive is that going to be the "average" car?

Mark.

 

[lordylawks]

Lordylawks: Make contact with your nearest IAM or RoSPA group. They will be only too pleased to advise.

Thanks Tom - I am persuaded that it's never too late to learn some new tricks. I'll let you all know how I get on .......

 

[TheJim]

As young chap myself, I must say that some of my friends who are in their late teens or early twenties have scared me so much with their driving that I will never get in their cars again. Not necessarily speed, but a complete lack of concentration and no ability to read the road.
I would not class myself as a brilliant driver, but I think I drive sensibly for my age- more due to the fact that I was a cyclist until I was twenty two and so naturally drive defensively. I first had a driving lesson when I was 17 but quickly realised that I was not mature enough to drive sensibly, so I did not start again until I left university. I think it was the best decision I have ever made, I see some really scary driving in Wycombe where I live. I am glad I did not go through the boy racer stage- I see the wreckage of too many accidents.
I just wish more people would realise that they are not the only people on the roads- and stopped buying volvos!

 

[SLinKyjoe]

go get topgear mag this week....good reading all about the subject of young drivers etc.....

the AUDI TT comes out the worse car of all for pedestreain protection.

and try this even if you are over 25!

www.westsussex.gov.uk look for the young drivers skills course.....this is something that should be available to all ages. you are never too old to learn. more agesim again.

 

[peterchurch]

Peter, agree completely that bigger cars give more protection, but a TT is not a bigger car, its just a very fast one. I remember in the late 80's a senior Ford exec let his 18 year old use his new scorpio cosworth, which he crashed on the first night and killed all four of his mates in the car, which i think proves my point.

Mark.

The TT is a very well built car and as such it will have a 100 times more protection in a crash than any of the french buckets that teenagers get as standard. I do hope you are not comparing a 1980s ford with a 1990s Merc or Audi... I have seen pictures of an SL that took a head on crash with a US pickup truck the Dogde was laying on the floor with its tongue hanging out and the SL was a bit bent thats build quality that counts...

The other point to note is that the ford had a cosworth badge and was tuned for racing an S class is just powerful and smooth...

I knew a driving instructor that used to use XR2i's for teaching cars. I once asked if she was mad. She said no they might as well learn to control the power from day 1... and she was right because I learned to drive in my own 1.2 astra (thrashed that to bits) then a year later I got a 2.0 CDI cav and it scared the whits out of me (also slowed me down alot)