Are cars too complicated?

[stickandrudder]

Mechanically, thanks to modern synthetic oils, cars are way, way better than they used to be.
Airbags, seat belt pre-tensioners, distronic etc are all massive safety improvements but for example: ABC suspension is just ridiculous over-engineering. For 99%of driver's a simple spring and a shock absorber is all that will ever be required, and this is where the 15 year old car starts to become desirable.
It's no surprise then that 124s in particular are climbing in price. People are getting sick and tired of being told that they need to spend £3000 on their 6 year old car just to get it through the MOT.

 

[grober]

The major problem with modern electronic systems on cars is they are proprietary rather than universal. This ties the service of the car increasingly to a select group of official dealers and excludes the rest of the motor trade. This gives rise to a monopolistic situation and without healthy open competition the price of servicing and parts as ratio to car purchase price has markedly increased in the UK in recent years. This is in contrast to 20 years ago where most garages could make a fair stab at sorting any problem on any make of car.

 

[television]

The major problem with modern electronic systems on cars is they are proprietary rather than universal. This ties the service of the car increasingly to a select group of official dealers and excludes the rest of the motor trade. This gives rise to a monopolistic situation and without healthy open competition the price of servicing and parts as ratio to car purchase price has markedly increased in the UK in recent years. This is in contrast to 20 years ago where most garages could make a fair stab at sorting any problem on any make of car.

Join this in with on line STAR and the worse it all gets

 

[Peter De La Mare]

The are simple cars. Go buy a Dacia or something.

 

[st4]

The are simple cars. Go buy a Dacia or something.

Is it electronically simple. Its really a renault minus any cabin trim and comforts. The engine will have an ECU, the car ABS sensors etc, airbag sensors etc. Diesels will have EGR etc.

Its an IMHO a modern car without any of the benefits of being modern. Crap trim was a thing of the 80's, but complex ECU's (engines are contemporty renault ones), DPFs etc were not.

Want an old simple car, buy an old simple car.

Want a modern one, buy a modern one. Avoid a Dacia like syphillis.

 

[d215yq]

Is it electronically simple. Its really a renault minus any cabin trim and comforts. The engine will have an ECU, the car ABS sensors etc, airbag sensors etc. Diesels will have EGR etc.

Its an IMHO a modern car without any of the benefits of being modern. Crap trim was a thing of the 80's, but complex ECU's (engines are contemporty renault ones), DPFs etc were not.

Want an old simple car, buy an old simple car.

Want a modern one, buy a modern one. Avoid a Dacia like syphillis.

But if you go for the base spec model you can get it for £7,500 with a full 7 year warranty. Let's assume resale of £500 at the end of that period, that's £1k a year including warranty. only basic servicing, MOT and tyres/brakes on top! (and i bet the tyres are a tenth of the price of the low profile ones on a modern merc!)

The reporters all say it's lack of complexity makes it light and handle well, it's also very reliable and although the engine is renault it's one in a very basic state of tune so no multiple turbos, injectors working within an inch of their life, etc. New cars are becoming so ugly outside and even premium marques cabins are becoming low rent, I can't see how this is much worse.

I'm actually of the opposit opinion...can i see a reason why anyone would swap an old, simple, quality car, for a new merc. NO! Could i see a reason why someone would swap an old simple quality car for a new Dacia, yes.

It's actually unbelievable to me that you can get a new 7yr warrantied car for £7,500 that's roughly the same size as that 2nd hand c class coupe for £42k with only 2.5 year warranty left you linked in your other post. I'm not daft enough to doubt the merc is better but is it really 5.5 times better???

 

[st4]

But if you go for the base spec model you can get it for £7,500 with a full 7 year warranty. Let's assume resale of £500 at the end of that period, that's £1k a year including warranty. only basic servicing, MOT and tyres/brakes on top! (and i bet the tyres are a tenth of the price of the low profile ones on a modern merc!)

The reporters all say it's lack of complexity makes it light and handle well, it's also very reliable and although the engine is renault it's one in a very basic state of tune so no multiple turbos, injectors working within an inch of their life, etc. New cars are becoming so ugly outside and even premium marques cabins are becoming low rent, I can't see how this is much worse.

There's low rent, and there is not having a radio or CD player.

Its still got, in diesel form, common rail injection, turbos etc. All things that can fail. You say its reliable, but have they been around long enough to prove themselves. ECU's etc all present and correct. All the things that do go wrong in modern cars all present and correct. CD players, radios, trip computers that you get on high end cars rarely go wrong, its stuff like EGR, injectors etc that give issues, which the Dacia has.

I agree tyres and servicing will be cheap, and the warranty a good thing...

But heres the nub, for £7500 you could get a lightly used Kia, with the balance of the warranty (5yrs) and say with nice trim and equipment.

I'm actually of the opposit opinion...can i see a reason why anyone would swap an old, simple, quality car, for a new merc. NO! Could i see a reason why someone would swap an old simple quality car for a new Dacia, yes.

It's actually unbelievable to me that you can get a new 7yr warrantied car for £7,500 that's roughly the same size as that 2nd hand c class coupe for £42k with only 2.5 year warranty left you linked in your other post. I'm not daft enough to doubt the merc is better but is it really 5.5 times better???

law of deminishing returns innit

Want my gut, I'd pay a bit more for a Kia or Hyundia, 7yr warranty, but less spartan car.

 

[d215yq]

RE Dacia

You ever driven one? My mate in the UK has a 2yr old golf, my dad has a brand new Kia Ceed, and my mate here has a Dacia Sandero (1yr old)...been about here for 2-3 years and supposedly reliable.

Outside i'd say the Kia is the best looking, though they're all quite similar in shape. Inside the golf has the best materials (not by as much a margin as you'd expect though), the Dacia has the nicest interior/dash design (not just black plastic everywhere, but feels cheap).

I haven't driven the cars but for the ride quality as a passenger the Dacia wins hands down (still nothing like the W124 though), the Kia and golf you feel every single bump and are horrid.

The Dacia has electric windows, remote central locking and a/c and a stereo. So does the Kia (and electric rear windows too as well as usb connectivity), the only extras the golf has are the auto wipers, lights, ambient lighting and cruise control and bigger alloys. The golf is way faster but it's the 2.0TD, i'd imagine the base model petrol would be similar perfromance to the Kia and Dacia (0-60 around 12s) and probably not have all those extras anyway...The golf has rattles just like the others, and has let my friend down in warranty period. The other two haven't caused trouble.

If you objectively test drove the Kia and Sandero and compared with a base model golf and got rid of preconceptions you would never know that one was £7,500, another £13,000 and the other £17,500. You'd be mad not to get the Dacia IMO. As for second hand Kia, you might as well get a second hand Dacia and save even more!

 

[st4]

I prefer a firmer car, Golf GT sport TDi is what my mate hasm its been fine but price is a bit err steep and the cabin is horrid. The Mk iV was nicer inside.

Kia wise, I've not, I've experience a new Hyundia and whilst not cheap, seemed as nice as a golf inside and comfortable too. 5yr warranty though, not seven. VX also offer 7rs but its capped at 100k miles.

I get the point re a used Dacia, I'd still go down the used car route. If you want a cheap car, get a used one.

 

[grober]

The are simple cars. Go buy a Dacia or something.

Or a new Mercedes A class which uses essentially the same Renault diesel engine- only you pay a lot more more for it. The advantage of the A class of course is its " full social media capabilities" . This will allow you to text the immortal "Just drove into a tree while texting Julian LOL !"

 

[st4]

Or a new Mercedes A class which uses essentially the same Renault diesel engine- only you pay a lot more more for it. The advantage of the A class of course is its " full social media capabilities" . This will allow you to text the immortal "Just drove into a tree while texting Julian LOL !"

So how does that make the Dacia simple and reliable. Renault engines still have a lot of electronics etc that can go wrong.

It tends not be things like COMAND, stereos and seat heaters that fail in high end cars but injectors, ecus.

I don't see how Dacia cars will be any different other than the entry price and warranty is very attractive.

 

[grober]

So how does that make the Dacia simple and reliable. Renault engines still have a lot of electronics etc that can go wrong.

It tends not be things like COMAND, stereos and seat heaters that fail in high end cars but injectors, ecus.

I don't see how Dacia cars will be any different other than the entry price and warranty is very attractive.

It was in answer to Peter De La Mare's assertion post #44 that if you wanted a simple car buy a DACIA? One thing is certain if the turbo goes "t*ts up" on the Dacia bet it's cheaper to replace than on the A class. Which brings me back to my original assertion that high tech is not bad "per se" its when its used to lever revenue streams by its proprietary nature that I object.

 

[d215yq]

Sorry but there are turbos and turbos. The old VAG Tdi engines and ford Tddi and merc 300TD engines all had turbos, but because (like dacia's cheap engine) they were happy with a few less mpg and good rather than excellent power these turbos, injectors and pumps happily lasted 250k miles.

Now the upmarket cars have all the high tec triple scroll turbos and injectors so delicate if they are knocked in transit they damage...and a lot of that is lucky to last 100k miles.

I understand there is technology creep into even a Dacia and the engine will have ECUs and some unsimple things. But it's still a far better reliability bet than a highly stressed engine you find in a merc or higher end renault. If it wasn't then Merc/renault would allow you to buy a 7yr extended warranty for a grand too. There's a reason they don't.

 

[Frontstep]

This gives some support to my opinion that Mercedes going down the "Tech" only route exposes them squarely to eastern competition.
The toys are easier to copy than the engineering excellence, which is the source of Mercedes long earned reputation.
The electronics factories and the research facilities are there ready to adorn the eastern cars with ever improving toys relatively cheaply.
Rusty cars with ever skimped basic engineering spirals Mercedes cars into the morass, it will be hard to dig them out.

 

[ianrandom]

Yeah the toys are great but they need to last. There are things I wouldn't count as a toy though, like remote locking etc. Thats just practical, a group of people can all go up to the car and get straight in, all cars should have it.

I drive a new Citroen Berlingo at work that doesn't have remote central locking or aircon, its just annoying.

And I thought with the Mercs, the whole point was that the toys worked mostly in the background, subtly enhancing things and making things safer?
Having said that, even my old W126 climate control took a couple of reads before I understood how clever it was and how to use it properly, so I can only imagine what they are like now.