Are mercedes rubbish or is it the dealers

[david arthur]

after countles recalls on brakes and gearbox my 03 E200 is still not fixed its all well having nice shiny showrooms and refreshments but if they cant fix problems because the computer says no fault the robots dont no what to do.Two years ago i said my e class was dangerous it wanted to pull away on its own in stationary traffic only in cold weather.To the point if you did not brake hard you would drive in to the back of stationary traffic.The problem is so severe the car would allmost stall.Well it went into the dealership for 4 days they said they had cleaned out a minute ammount of swarf and refilled with clean oil and filter.Guess what when it was tested it did fault on the mechanic he said if he was not aware of the problem he could have drove into the back of someone. then said he would have to e mail merc as they cant talk to them direct anymore and i would have to rebook my car in again after christmas. On the 9th january it went in again this time they replaced a valve in the tork converter road tested again and said the fault was still there but not as bad.This time apparently they ordered a new tork coverter which they fitted the next day but once again this did not cure the broblem allthough it was not as bad they said merc then told them to put in a new special oil which he said he was surprised they had. Now ive been told to run it for 500 miles to see how it goes.They said they had an ML with the same problem worse than mine it wanted to drag the car over the road.They put a new tork coverter which did not cure the problem so ended up putting a new gearbox in.What i am worried about is my warranty runs out in june and will i be left with a large bill if the gearbox goes.I think it will be my first and last mercedes ithink i will be sticking with:evil: BMW next time.Any other guys with similar problems ?.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

I think you should take the car back, and demand a refund.

 

[Rory]

Worth a try demanding a refund - they've had several goes at fixing it and failed. Unlikely you'll succeed though, after this length of time. As a compromise, you might ask them to extend the warranty for a year.

Prob best to put this in writing to them, but get someone else to write the letter for you.

 

[mr. shr]

In response to the original question, "Are Mercs/Dealerships rubbish?" I'd like to throw in a couple of words:

We've had Mercs in our family for a few years now and I think there has been a definite decline in the quality of the cars.
Whilst I can accept things go wrong with cars (after all they are mechanical and electrical devices) the biggest problem (I feel) is that Dealerships have not got a clue on how to resolve technical faults. They just seem to be forever guessing at how to fix your reported problem and charge you for every attempt they have.

Whilst I haven't had any problems with my W208 recently, I am forever in fear that if/when something goes wrong in the future, my blood pressure will be raising as a result of the confrontations I have with the service manager at the dealership.

I'm hoping to change my car later this year but rather than remaining faithful to the Three Pointed Star, I am (for the first time since being old enough to drive) looking for a new luxury car manufacturer.
I have recently test driven some Lexus motors, and have been quite impressed. But then again I think my judgement for choosing a new car is off at the moment. Right now my main criteria for selecting a luxury car lies in the manufacturer's Customer Service rating, and as Lexus appear to have scored so highly recently, they certainly gain my attention.

 

[philharve]

Hi

One of the biggest, if not the biggest thread, in this entire Forum concerns MB quality and its gradual decline over the past 5 - 10 years.

REGARDS Phil

 

[mercmonkey]

lexus are nice cars, always do well in the topgear/jd power survey

I wanted an IS200 as my company car but the bean counters said no and gave me a mondeo although i could have had an alfa (now theres a reliable car lol)

 

[television]

I think that I am right in saying that most faults relate to electronic control units. most of the fitters in MB workshops can read fault codes, beyond that they are stuck. to be good at what you are doing you must understand the basic first elements, once you know that, it then does not matter how a thing is made, as it is possible to work it out in a very short time. the motor service trade is full of testing devices that shows the problem, Motor engineers and electronics do not mix. to understand electronics you need a special brain and you must enjoy the work, you can look at a printed circuit all day, nothing happens, nothing moves and that is far apart from the rest of the car.If you do not know how it works ,how can you repair it, no one asks themselves why did that piece fail. Take for instance a starter motor on a deisel failing after 65k miles. the starter was OK when it left the factory so why did it fail, no one is bothered about that and they fit a new one and 20k later the car is back with the same problem, further investigation could have shown that the glow plugs and fuel filter were in poor condition allowing unburnt fuel to reside in the cylinders making the engine backfire during cranking. or that the starter switch contacts were sticky, leaving the starter engaged with the engine running. this type of misdiagnosis is costing the makers of these components too much and something must be done soon.
Will the day ever come when a MB eng; will open up a control unit to see what has gone wrong, I do not think so for he will never know what he is looking at. this must be the only trade in the world where no one cares about a comeback, and MB are not alone in this. Sorry to go on,it makes me so angry. I spend my life making sure that nothing comes back to me after it has been fixed, the odd one in a thousand that does come back, I pay their petrol and give them a small gift.

Malcolm

 

[mercmonkey]

well said TV I wholeheartedly agree

although its not the only business this happens in, look at the computer industry

 

[jberks]

fully agree.
Big corporate management see service as an expense to be reduced, so they spend less on it, entirely missing the point that its the service that drives the sales. Many of us have stories where a poorly car was declared fit because the computer says it is. The concept of the computer not being able to spot the problem is lost on them and the idea that they unplug the computer and use their own brain, simply abhorent and in any case, not costed for. If anyone has the talent, they shine, and as managers believe that everyone wants to be a manager (just beccause they did), they take him out of the workshop, put him in a suit, behind a desk and wait until he's so out of touch as to be useless, then make him redundant as he wasn't a very good manager anyway!.

I have it in my industry too. The stock answer to all faults is to re-install software. No one has any diagnostic skills any more. When I was working on PCs, one monitor supplier insisted that I reinstall the driver for a montor that flickered whenever anyone walked past it. The discussion got quite heated. He'd just looked up 'flicker' and got that answer, anything else wasn't on the menu so was clearly impossible. I wonder if they've added 'dry joint' to the menu yet. The depth of the problem was brought home to me whe I had to explain how a computer works (and why his planned card swap out wouldn't) ... to a service engineer, sent to fix a £500,000 machine.

Then again, they make me look good so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much.

Yes the quality has dropped somewhat, but to be fair, it couldn't remain as it was or we'd all be complaining about how MB had gone bust or was too low tech because they weren't a high enough volume producer.

 

[television]

As Jberks and Mercmonkey says this problem exist in most things we use today. Computers use better printed circuit boards than TV's and cars. I only know of 2 soldering systems, flow soldering is used on surface mount components and wave soldering used for through hole components.
10 years ago TV main boards were wave soldered and the high voltage components hand soldered after. not any more,so most sets just make the 12months guarantee out.
Last week I had an idle control board from a C202, this was wave soldered,
99% of the components were Hi Grade. 2 ressistors were cheap, known to fail items. They were mounted off the board on 25mm legs with no suport.
As soon as you put the soldering iron on to the joint the solder disapeared.
in the end I had to resolder all 200+ joints. this one was made in Austria.

A fual pump relay I did from a 126 made in Ireland was very well made and the couple of bad joints were no more than aging.

Things are going to get worse for we now must use lead free solder and it is a pig to work with and you cant mix it with leaded solder.

After doing the C202 board I thought about taking all of the modules out of my SL and hand solder all of the joints, but with so many modules I soon forgot the idea. So many modules is what makes an MB special and that is why we love them.
One last thing on the subject, years ago we used to get block diagrams, showing the flow and return paths,with all of the check points along the way.I now look wth dispair at modern diagrams, and for the best part they are of no use at all, To trace a fault you do need a complete all in one diagram of the circuit you are trying to fix. you think you are checking from point A to B only to find 2 hours later that there is sensor up the exhaust pipe
that you have never heard of in the middle of the chain, that recycles the gas when exceding 250 MPH

Malcolm

 

[david arthur]

I think you should take the car back, and demand a refund.

thanks for the post the cars only done 18,000 and another strange thing ever since ive had the car the tyres lose pressure the offside front rear about 8ib a week the tyre repair people cant find why they took the tyres off blew them up put them in a bath of water no air bubbles when the car went into the dealers in nottm they said they had not lost pressure in the 5 days they had the car untill i took my digital tyre guage out of my pocket and proved that they had very strange they had not got an answer to that one

 

[Bob Staines]

When i was recently in the new dealership in Nottingham i was impressed by the new showroom, but not by the speed of service. They provide coffee and somewhere nice to sit but to me time is money and to be honest i was sat there for ages .Like you i dont think i will bother buying a merc again i am just not impressed by the company or thier product

 

[dogsbody]

As the cars get more complex they makers rely on electronics to diagnose and fix the cars. But and a big but is also the experience of the "diagnoser", and his ability to understand and empathacise with the car. A few years ago I had a problem with a Cavalier, which suddenly would cut out for no reason usually at 80 mph on a motorway.
Under computer diagnosis, there were no fault codes from the ECU to diagnise the fault. The fitter dived uner the dash board and changed two relays, swopping them. He explained that one was the petrol pump relay working hundreds of time an hour, and the other the emergency warning lamps which will be used a few times in the cars life. He charged for the short diagnosis on the computer - thats it.
He knew the car, he knew the problem, and hence was able to fix it in a few seconds. He was a professional.
MB are going to have to have fitters who train and work on a one particular car type, and not have one fitter fixes all mentality.

 

[television]

As the cars get more complex they makers rely on electronics to diagnose and fix the cars. But and a big but is also the experience of the "diagnoser", and his ability to understand and empathacise with the car. A few years ago I had a problem with a Cavalier, which suddenly would cut out for no reason usually at 80 mph on a motorway.
Under computer diagnosis, there were no fault codes from the ECU to diagnise the fault. The fitter dived uner the dash board and changed two relays, swopping them. He explained that one was the petrol pump relay working hundreds of time an hour, and the other the emergency warning lamps which will be used a few times in the cars life. He charged for the short diagnosis on the computer - thats it.
He knew the car, he knew the problem, and hence was able to fix it in a few seconds. He was a professional.
MB are going to have to have fitters who train and work on a one particular car type, and not have one fitter fixes all mentality.

I think a good start would be for them to get an electronic eng; who understood how their cars work, he could even be mobile and go from branch to branch

Malcolm

 

[nim]

first put your case to a small claims court and if it is out side there money range ie £3,000 they will refer it to the next higher court in england county in scotland sheriff with a judges recommendation like that MB will run for the toilet.

 

[fwb44]

A neighbour of mine is a M-B fan and wanted to try a new W211 sedan. The local M-B dealership 'thought they could get him one in 3 or 4 weeks'. The local BMW dealer had a brand new 530D demo available immediately. He took it for 48 hours and bought one immediately thereafter. And he has a very senior position in a major British vehicle remarketing group. What is the matter with DC?

 

[Bob Staines]

I agree you must talk to the dealer and dont let them fob you off till the warranty runs out. List all the recalls, faults, etc with your low mileage you might have a case . Nissan make nice reliable cars if you get your dough back

 

[Hans]

Ouch Malcom, my Uncle may have fabricated that C202 board that came from Austria plant.... if so I apologize. ;o)

I agree completely Malcom and certainly appreciate the frustration at times of owning a Benz... especially an older one. I greatly depend on ALLDATADIY.COM website for technical details and links to other sites regarding my 1994 LWB S-420. As Malcom has mentioned, I have also solved most of my electrical issues by simply resoldering "cracked" solder joints.. escpecially all the window controls as well as some of printed circuit boards. My vehicle has not seen a M.B. Dealership or mechanic en many years and I hope to keep it that way... Just that has kept my stress level at an even keel.....knock on a 12 X 12 piece of OAK! And yes, even with it all we love the Mercedes Benz driving Excellance.

 

[Stevie A]

I have been thinking about this again and think that MB quality is superb and better than the majority of cars.

The electronic side of things is where all modern motor manufacturers have everyone over a barrel. If you have a complex engine with loads of electronics then you virtually have to go to a dealer for a check when something goes wrong - that is the point, they make the cars so they are not user serviceable / repairable without electronic diagnostic equipment. All cars are now like this.

Why doesn't someone make a classic engine in a modern body car as the fuel economy on a 15 year old car is very similar to a modern one with electronics? But if they did that they wouldn't have you over a barrel. It's not just MB.

 

[Charlotte001]

Errrrrrrrrrrrr yep.

Although Vauxhall are pretty trash too. My 2002 Corsa went back countless time because it kept switching off at 55-70mph when returning to my side of the road after overtaking they still to this day cannot explain what's happening.

MB charging £90+Vat per hour should be better than they are

Charlotte