Auto express w124's "v" w210's.

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

yes auto express this week gave the mid 90's w210's a good rubbishing, and said the previous w124's were far superior. the article is on what they refer to as "peter pan cars" the cars which people want to keep, look after and form a bond with, like having a cannon gold plated camera instead of the kodak use once and throw away type. apparantly the w124's were bombproof and then a team of merc. engineers were asked to value engineer the w210's, cheaper steel, less paint, reduced electrics specifications, quick fit fuel lines, etc. i have experienced all this with my w210, but as my friends tollerate the ducati motorcycles poor reliabilty and good looks i am happy to do the same with my w210, it has never let me down, but has cost me £5,000 in repairs over the past 11 yrs and 190,000 miles. herbiemercman.

 

[roofless]

that sounds about right but as you say if your happy with your 210 stick with it

 

[jibcl500]

Im breaking a W210 at the moment and its so easy to pul apart, I recon 3 days tops to strip it, a w124 would take twice that. W124 are a great car built when mercedes cars where great.

jib

 

[st4]

How would the build of an 05 onwards 211 compare to a 210 or a 124? The 124 is a far less complex car than a 211 it has to be said, but how does one measure build quality. Is it by the integrity of the mechanical components, then a 210 will stand up well with a 124 and 211, is it by the body work then a 210 loses out or is it by the little things like wiper mechanisms, soft close doors, interior plastics etc. The 210 isn't as nice as a 124 but plastics etc are relatively superficial.

You can measure build quality by how long the car stays on the road, and there are plenty of 124's left, and there would be 210's if they didn't rust so bad. A 211 has ran for 470k miles (ask olly) and thats with not so good maintence (ask olly as its owner is v.tight). I'd say they still make the modern ones okay....

One way a 210 is better made than a 124 is when you need it to be, i.e. when you crash it. The 124 gets praise for how well its built, but if you slammed it into a wall @ 50mph and did the same with a 210, 211 the 211 would come up trumps.

 

[jberks]

A 1950's Bentley is pretty well built. Probably better made than a 2008 model. Is it a better car? No not really.
A 124 had better steel and some more solid components, but the handling isn't as safe, the structure isn't as collision safe, it doesn't have the technological innovations which, whilst making the 210 safer also made it more complex and less reliable. Yes, we all know about the rust, it was a screw up, probably done with the best of intentions. Don't 124's suffer from expensive engine loom issues?

My Dad had a Pc built in the 1980's. It was solid, heavy, utterly reliable and cost the same as a car. I have one here, plastic, light and virtually throw away. which is better? Lets just say I wouldn't swap back. A 210 built to the standards of a 124 would handle like a barge, topout at 125mph do 20mpg and cost 25% more to buy. There has to be a trade-off.

I like the 124 and would consider owning one but this idea that it was perfect simply isn't true. It's fuel economy was designed for the 1980's. It cost as much as a house. it handled like an oil tanker and gave virtually no feedback. I had a 202 - basically a cut down 124 and I absolutely loved it. I've driven a 204 and wasn't as struck (but then i have a 211). Is the 202 better than the 204. No not really.

124s are owned as a rule by enthusiasts these days. Hence they last forever and look great. Any faults and poor designed parts have long since been replaced with updated components so they're bullet proof ...now. The old gripes have long since been forgotten or are considered part of the car's character. I hear the same claims made about 123s and whilst I have a nostalgic view of them, I know them well. They were fabulous but fault free? nah.

 

[Apial]

A. Don't 124's suffer from expensive engine loom issues?


.

Actually only a few do. These are ,as far as I know, the 320 M104 variants built at the end of the run and perhaps a few 280s too. The vast majority of the W124 range is pretty bomb proof in the wiring department.

Bosch injected M104 engines are trouble free.

Most of the trouble seems to have been in the use of recyclable materials that had not had time to be long term tested.

Its true that some of the W124s cost as much as a house, but then most owners these days will not have had to find that sort of money, and as such are getting themselves a bargain.

 

[mikestrivens]

I am curious as to how much it would cost for a new W124 loom and how much to replace? I don't think mine is a problem, at the moment, but you never know and it is better to be prepared.

 

[st4]

A 1950's Bentley is pretty well built. Probably better made than a 2008 model. Is it a better car? No not really.
A 124 had better steel and some more solid components, but the handling isn't as safe, the structure isn't as collision safe, st of intentions. Don't 124's suffer from expensive engine loom issues?
.

This bit grabs me as I don't quite follow the logic. A newer car uses much more high tensile steel than an older car. The body panels on a 124 vs a 210 or 211 may be of a high specification but the steel made in the chasis most certainly won't.

Thats why modern cars weigh more, much more high tensile steels in the bits that matter, B posts and front crash structure. The quality of the metal there will be much better than in the older cars.

 

[hotrodder]

This bit grabs me as I don't quite follow the logic. A newer car uses much more high tensile steel than an older car. The body panels on a 124 vs a 210 or 211 may be of a high specification but the steel made in the chasis most certainly won't.

Thats why modern cars weigh more, much more high tensile steels in the bits that matter, B posts and front crash structure. The quality of the metal there will be much better than in the older cars.

Weight and stiffness wise steel is steel- a high strength alloy steel is no stiffer than plain old mild steel but less is needed to achieve a given strength (everything else being equal). The switch to HSLA steels means less steel is needed to make a car and weight can saved (more important these days although costs were probably high in the initial reasoning). The actual alloys used will have changed a bit over the years but the W124 series used quite a bit of HSLA steel. Performance in a crash has more to do with design than anything else- engineering the car to come apart in a controlled manner via built in weak points, a process that is continually evolving

Cars have been getting heavier for ages- back when the W124 was current 2 airbags was rare, now everything has hundreds of the things along with electric seats and loads of other heavy gizmos. Be interesting to know how the BARE shells compare weight wise

Mike,
Engine looms for the M104/W124 combo are eyewatering for what they are, high £500s i think but there are other options. A repair section is available from MB for the (most commonly effected) section to the coils, part #s have posted before- search the site for w124 loom, plenty of threads. The other option would be to re-insulate damaged areas or the whole loom, probably the route i'll be taking later this year as my '93 320te loom has damaged insulation in other areas too, wiring to the MAF and other sections of the loom at the rear of the head has cracked insulation.

 

[st4]

Your point re the bare shells is interesting but not directly comparible. Cars have grown a lot since the 124 and to compare the new E class (212) or outgoing one 211 wouldn't be a like for like exercise as they are quite different in size.

A lot of 124's do have electric seats, aircon etc, hifi's etc that add weight too. The newer cars will have more sound deadening etc but I take your point that modern cars have a lot of gizzmos but the cars that have gained the most weight lie several segments below cars like E classes (small hatches etc weigh a heap more than their older counter parts)

 

[hotrodder]

I didn't think there much in it overall size wise between a 124 and later e classes (although no doubt the layout is more efficient making them roomier inside) but then i've never really compared 'em, just assumed they were reasonably close in overall dimensions?

Very true with regards to small hatches like a Golf though, gotten very fat compared to the origonal so the shell itself makes a big difference but then it had to to accomodate airbags, electric gadgets and bigger engines

 

[st4]

I didn't think there much in it overall size wise between a 124 and later e classes (although no doubt the layout is more efficient making them roomier inside) but then i've never really compared 'em, just assumed they were reasonably close in overall dimensions?

Very true with regards to small hatches like a Golf though, gotten very fat compared to the origonal so the shell itself makes a big difference but then it had to to accomodate airbags, electric gadgets and bigger engines

Look at a 124 and a 211 when they are out on the road, the difference, particularly in width is quite significant. But not when you see a modern eurobox compared to an older eurobox. The original corsa (nova) and the new bloated one proves the point perfectly.

Modern cars don't use their space as efficiently. One of the big drives in increasing safety is to push to the occupants into the centre of the car placinging them further from the point of contact in a side impact.

If you have a 211 you'll see how far away the drivers side window is from your right arm to see this. A car thats really easy to see this design is the new corsa, where you can see the driver almost a 3rd of the way towards the middle of the car, with lots of dead space to their side and the drivers door.

 

[popuptoaster]

Personally i think W124's are underengineered as well, my W114 is built like a tank and has far more parts designed to be repaired on it than the laters cars have, after 35 years neither of the doors has dropped, pretty much everything still works (heated rear screen has packed in, but the laminated rear screen has started misting in the corners so i've ignored it till i replace the glass) and any car that has this throttle linkage instead of a simple cable dont need to prove its tough.

 

[st4]

Personally i think W124's are underengineered as well, my W114 is built like a tank and has far more parts designed to be repaired on it than the laters cars have,

That has been the drop off in quality with parts that are much more interchangable and are thrown away once bust. Cars, especially if that awful 10yr scrapping thing comes in, will be built only to last a very specific time frame, not built to the best possible standard.

 

[hotrodder]

Just had a look at wikipedia...

w124 estate is 4780 long, 1740 wide
late w211 estate is 4884 long, 1811 wide so 100mm/4" longer and 70mm/3" wider

Heights are near as damn it the same but it's going to depend on spec anyways- mines a sportline and so will sit lower than one without a sport chassis for example

Generally i prefer older cars too, particually from the 50's and 60's but it was different world back then- labour costs versus materials, the term 'fit for purpose' hadn't been coined etc. Goes some way to explaining the throw away parts but there are others too...

Having to replace an entire wishbone for a worn ball joint for example. A few exceptions aside (like a w124 320 or sport chassis. why?) aluminium suspension components are common now (less unsprung weight etc) but aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit like steel and is far easier to damage with ham fistedness so integral ball joints kinda make sense. Add in the extra £££ for maintance and we have a winner!

The 10 year scrapping thing... can't see it happening, too big a classic scene in this country although with time the old MPs (that helped with the free road rent for classics) will be retiring/dying off. More likely that it'll just become harder to use them regularly- emissions zones or other 'green' schemes.

 

[st4]

Emissions zones are a bug bear of mine. It is a block on freedom of movement. The LEZ in london is like a mini berlin wall

 

[hotrodder]

Yep, know several people that were forced to change vehicles to stay in business or to prevent getting stuck with something worthless in a year or two. Wonder how long it be before it's expanded and/or tightened to include all vehicles (like Cologne).

 

[st4]

Yep, know several people that were forced to change vehicles to stay in business or to prevent getting stuck with something worthless in a year or two. Wonder how long it be before it's expanded and/or tightened to include all vehicles (like Cologne).

Depends if we get a better government....its just a matter of time as all the political types want to be green. Why did common sense go out of fashion :evil:

 

[hotrodder]

Common sense died a long time ago unfortunatly. Even it were still alive 'green' has been such a good cash cow it won't be going away regardless of which flavour muppets are calling the shots.

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

looks like i instigated another cracker here, some great comments came out. herbiemercman.