Automatic Gearbox - Best Advice Sitting in Traffic

[Dosco]

Sadly Malcolm, it does take them much longer to find the gear and release the parking brake, both auto and manual drivers. Why does the sudden appearance of a green traffic light, in a predictable sequence which we can all recite, come as such a complete F***ing surprise to most motorists?

In the UK the lights sequence pauses for, let us say 20 seconds on green. For the reason above this lets between 3 and 5 motorists through.

In continental Europe, the sequence is much slower, so the traffic queue gets a much better chance to get going and 12-15 vehicles will get through, often clearing the queue.

Why can't we have a similar situation in the UK, whereby the traffic flow can be improved by simply observing human nature of this sort, and allowing for it?

We might also try "turning left on a red" when there is no traffic coming, and flashing amber in all directions at a junction controlled by lights, off peak and at night. They work elsewhere and save us spending so much of our lives at red lights, watching fresh air.

We have very congested roads, and these are some of the possible remedies which we have not even heard suggested by the experts.

It is far too complicated for the simple minds that are in charge of such things Alec.

When they sorted out the junction near us and installed new traffic lights they made a big thing about the fact they were the very latest in TL technology calling it an "intelligent traffic management control system" they were supposed to recognise vehicles building up and automatically "phase the flow" so in layman's terms no vehicles waiting then the light stayed red and the lanes that needed a green to be kept moving did so.

The only problem was someone must have forgotten to install the 'intelligent' bit because they were failing several times a day, so the simple minds of the local authority decide that it was all too hard and had them set 'Quote' "to work as traffic lights should"

 

[stickandrudder]

I couldn't disagree more with those that advocate sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake.
Firstly because it IS ****** annoying being stuck in the ****ing rain in the middle of winter on my daily 1 1/2 hour commute (each way) and having to stare at somebody else's brake lights, sometimes for quite lengthy periods.
Have a little courtesy and spare the driver behind from this nuisance. It adds to driver fatigue which has safety implications.
My personal preference is to select nuetral and use the park brake. That way I can prepare by engaging drive a couple of seconds before it's required (because I'm looking ahead and not simply waiting for the car in front to move) and simply release the park brake when I'm ready to move off.
Occasionally in slow moving traffic I'll actually swap between D & N much as I would with a clutch pedal. This enable me to negotiate the slow moving traffic without braking blinding the driver behind AND, you'll be surprised to learn, leads to less driver fatigue due to NOT having to push the brake pedal all the time. Naturally this saves a little on brake pad wear as well.
I drive racing cars at the weekends so don't think I'm some old pipe-smoking flat-capped idiot!
Secondly, and perhaps more important if your wallet is more important to you than your fellow road users, leaving your foot on the brake causes heat to build up in the bulb holder and leads to premature failure of the connections. How many of you have had to have new lenses in your 210s because of persistant bulb failure? Now you know why!
Rant over.

 

[Pottsy]

I am always itching to go into neutral when stopped for a while, purely for economy reasons (churning the torque converter fluid saps extra power/fuel).

But the conventional wisdom I have heard is that the shift in and out of gear is wearing on the 'box, and the UK manual says "Do not shift the transmission to N while you are driving. Otherwise the automatic transmission could be damaged."

The US manual says "To avoid damage to the transmission, never shift the automatic transmission into neutral position N while driving. Exception: If the ESC is switched off ... if the vehicle is in danger or skidding. Coasting the vehicle, or driving for any other reason with the automatic transmission in neutral position N can result in transmission damage that is not covered by the MB warranty".

So, is being stationary with the engine running "driving"?

 

[stickandrudder]

No, it isn't.
You certainly shouldn't make a habit of knocking into neutral at speed although I often have to do it during a road test as a diagnostic tool.

 

[television]

I couldn't disagree more with those that advocate sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake.
Firstly because it IS ****** annoying being stuck in the ****ing rain in the middle of winter on my daily 1 1/2 hour commute (each way) and having to stare at somebody else's brake lights, sometimes for quite lengthy periods.
Have a little courtesy and spare the driver behind from this nuisance. It adds to driver fatigue which has safety implications.
My personal preference is to select nuetral and use the park brake. That way I can prepare by engaging drive a couple of seconds before it's required (because I'm looking ahead and not simply waiting for the car in front to move) and simply release the park brake when I'm ready to move off.
Occasionally in slow moving traffic I'll actually swap between D & N much as I would with a clutch pedal. This enable me to negotiate the slow moving traffic without braking blinding the driver behind AND, you'll be surprised to learn, leads to less driver fatigue due to NOT having to push the brake pedal all the time. Naturally this saves a little on brake pad wear as well.
I drive racing cars at the weekends so don't think I'm some old pipe-smoking flat-capped idiot!
Secondly, and perhaps more important if your wallet is more important to you than your fellow road users, leaving your foot on the brake causes heat to build up in the bulb holder and leads to premature failure of the connections. How many of you have had to have new lenses in your 210s because of persistant bulb failure? Now you know why!
Rant over.

I think that you should add up the cost of other parts

When you are stationery there is no wear on the brakes at all.

When you go from D to N, all parts including the gear shift rods, gearbox, prop shaft and ½ shafts and diff all move out of any loading, and move again when you go into D with a small clonk.
I have seen cars where this has been done for the life of the car, and all splines in the drive chain worn and clunky,in the end a very loud clonk when going from R to D


Most high level brake lights are LED and any heat build up in the bulbs is very small,,the atmosphere takes a bigger toll on lamps with oxidization

 

[television]

I am always itching to go into neutral when stopped for a while, purely for economy reasons (churning the torque converter fluid saps extra power/fuel).

But the conventional wisdom I have heard is that the shift in and out of gear is wearing on the 'box, and the UK manual says "Do not shift the transmission to N while you are driving. Otherwise the automatic transmission could be damaged."

The US manual says "To avoid damage to the transmission, never shift the automatic transmission into neutral position N while driving. Exception: If the ESC is switched off ... if the vehicle is in danger or skidding. Coasting the vehicle, or driving for any other reason with the automatic transmission in neutral position N can result in transmission damage that is not covered by the MB warranty".

So, is being stationary with the engine running "driving"?

The car does not use any more fuel in D than in N other than on cars like the early 124, and 126 cars

 

[rf065]

The new Smart car with stop start system indicates the stance Smart & Mercedes take on this subject.

"It’s a stop-start feature that, when the Smart’s speed falls to walking speed, the clutch disengages and the engine dies. It’s peaceful and makes you a good citizen because emissions have dwindled to zero.

When you take your foot off the brake, the engine chunters into life and by the time you touch the accelerator it’s ready to go."

So, slow down at the lights, engine dies & you put your foot on the brake, remove foot from brake & engine re starts.

Russ

 

[st4]

No, it isn't.
You certainly shouldn't make a habit of knocking into neutral at speed although I often have to do it during a road test as a diagnostic tool.

What about 10mph, I do this a lot to get a smoother stop as in D it cannot be as smooth (the car is pushing agaisnt the brakes). Should I stop this practice before its too late?

 

[television]

What about 10mph, I do this a lot to get a smoother stop as in D it cannot be as smooth (the car is pushing agaisnt the brakes). Should I stop this practice before its too late?

As you can tow the car for up to 30 miles at a speed of under 30mph you will do no harm at all,, I go down will sometimes just for the sake of it, and as above when testing you need to

 

[whitenemesis]

What about 10mph, I do this a lot to get a smoother stop as in D it cannot be as smooth (the car is pushing agaisnt the brakes). Should I stop this practice before its too late?

I would have thought yes, stop doing it. The autobox is designed to remain in drive whilst braking to a stop. As soon as the brakes are applied the fuel is reduced to tickover, so no different from holding the car at lights when in D.

Just my opinion

 

[television]

I would have thought yes, stop doing it. The autobox is designed to remain in drive whilst braking to a stop. As soon as the brakes are applied the fuel is reduced to tickover, so no different from holding the car at lights when in D.

Just my opinion

I agree completely Peter, it is as you say all built in,,I have just re read what st4 was saying and you are correct and the normal thing to do

 

[Blobcat]

The new Smart car with stop start system indicates the stance Smart & Mercedes take on this subject.

"It’s a stop-start feature that, when the Smart’s speed falls to walking speed, the clutch disengages and the engine dies. It’s peaceful and makes you a good citizen because emissions have dwindled to zero.

When you take your foot off the brake, the engine chunters into life and by the time you touch the accelerator it’s ready to go."

So, slow down at the lights, engine dies & you put your foot on the brake, remove foot from brake & engine re starts.

Russ

I wonder in a few years time what the state of the starter motors and electrical system will be like on all the cars that now switch off when waiting at lights? I know it is to decrease the emissions to get a better VED rate, I have my doubts on the longevity of starter motors, ring gears and batteries though because of the push for low emissions.

 

[television]

I wonder in a few years time what the state of the starter motors and electrical system will be like on all the cars that now switch off when waiting at lights? I know it is to decrease the emissions to get a better VED rate, I have my doubts on the longevity of starter motors, ring gears and batteries though because of the push for low emissions.

My thoughts too when I had my shop in the late 60s, a pp3 sold for 2s 3d, so what is the cost of the replacement batteries in these cars going to be. It could be funny when the odd cells go dead and it goes a 100yds then stops

 

[Blakey]

I wonder in a few years time what the state of the starter motors and electrical system will be like on all the cars that now switch off when waiting at lights? I know it is to decrease the emissions to get a better VED rate, I have my doubts on the longevity of starter motors, ring gears and batteries though because of the push for low emissions.

What about when in traffic jams? Moving off for a short distance then stopping again. The batteries, switchgear and starter motors are going to be under particular stress in those circumstances.

 

[Blobcat]

I couldn't disagree more with those that advocate sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake.
Firstly because it IS ****** annoying being stuck in the ****ing rain in the middle of winter on my daily 1 1/2 hour commute (each way) and having to stare at somebody else's brake lights, sometimes for quite lengthy periods.
Have a little courtesy and spare the driver behind from this nuisance. It adds to driver fatigue which has safety implications.
My personal preference is to select nuetral and use the park brake. That way I can prepare by engaging drive a couple of seconds before it's required (because I'm looking ahead and not simply waiting for the car in front to move) and simply release the park brake when I'm ready to move off.
Occasionally in slow moving traffic I'll actually swap between D & N much as I would with a clutch pedal. This enable me to negotiate the slow moving traffic without braking blinding the driver behind AND, you'll be surprised to learn, leads to less driver fatigue due to NOT having to push the brake pedal all the time. Naturally this saves a little on brake pad wear as well.
I drive racing cars at the weekends so don't think I'm some old pipe-smoking flat-capped idiot!

I understand your frustration sitting in traffic with high level LEDs blinding you, however it is not uncommon for rear end collisions because the car at the back of the queue has put his handbrake on and and released the foot brake. The vehicle approaching from behind saw the brake lights, they then went off so didn't realise that the vehicles in front were stationary, they then pile into the back of the queue.
Changing from D to N and not braking is not giving a very clear signal to whoever is behind you that you are slowing down. If the driver behind is attentive they not really an issue but if they are distracted then without the flash of brake lights they may miss you slowing and have to brake hard causing the driver behind them to do the same with a possible accident ensuing.

I have driven a lot in North America and with almost all cars having automatic gearboxes most drivers sit with their foot on the brake at stop lights. It has been this way for many years and not an issue there. I have also seen less ripple through braking on the freeways and I thing this is because they are used to seeing brake lights and instead of stamping on the brakes they brake gently and so the ripple through braking doesn't occur the same as in the UK. I sit further back from the car in front at traffic lights (you should be able to see the road between you and the car in front) and don't stare directly into the brake lights of the car in front.

Secondly, and perhaps more important if your wallet is more important to you than your fellow road users, leaving your foot on the brake causes heat to build up in the bulb holder and leads to premature failure of the connections. How many of you have had to have new lenses in your 210s because of persistant bulb failure? Now you know why!
Rant over.

Not once in 126K miles with my 210. I would be more concerned about costs in the gearbox from the wear of going in and out of drive.

 

[jberks]

This is why it took them a while to bring out this technology. The basics are simple enough and modern cars with press button stop/start systems could do this with a simple software change, but the manufacturers had to redesign an uprated starter mechanism and power source to cope with the extra strain. You'll find that a stop.start starter motor will be a lot heavier duty than a conventional one, as will be the ring gear and battery.
Also, do remember that stop/start won't kick in when the engine is cold or the voltage is below ideal so stresses should be kept to a minimum as it should fire up 'first flick'.

 

[Blobcat]

What about when in traffic jams? Moving off for a short distance then stopping again. The batteries, switchgear and starter motors are going to be under particular stress in those circumstances.

I wonder if after purchasing such a vehicle and the emission figures being set if the system could be set to not switch off thereby reducing repairs and replacement...

 

[jberks]

I couldn't disagree more with those that advocate sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake.
Firstly because it IS ****** annoying being stuck in the ****ing rain in the middle of winter on my daily 1 1/2 hour commute (each way) and having to stare at somebody else's brake lights, sometimes for quite lengthy periods.
Have a little courtesy and spare the driver behind from this nuisance. It adds to driver fatigue which has safety implications.
My personal preference is to select nuetral and use the park brake. That way I can prepare by engaging drive a couple of seconds before it's required (because I'm looking ahead and not simply waiting for the car in front to move) and simply release the park brake when I'm ready to move off.
Occasionally in slow moving traffic I'll actually swap between D & N much as I would with a clutch pedal. This enable me to negotiate the slow moving traffic without braking blinding the driver behind AND, you'll be surprised to learn, leads to less driver fatigue due to NOT having to push the brake pedal all the time. Naturally this saves a little on brake pad wear as well.

Actually in terms of fatigue, the opposite can be true. Following a driver such as yourself, I would need to keep an eye on the car in front. With brake lights, I can avert my eyes (rest them), focus elsewhere and relax. I have no need to watch the traffic. Once the bright red screen glare dissapears from my perpheral vision, I know we're moving off.
Also, as I have pointed out before, I was involved in an accident with a driver who felt his brakelights should be off. It made it surprisingly difficult to tell his relative speed and for an inexperienced van driver (as I was at the time) that difference was enough to make a collision inevitable.

Secondly, and perhaps more important if your wallet is more important to you than your fellow road users, leaving your foot on the brake causes heat to build up in the bulb holder and leads to premature failure of the connections. How many of you have had to have new lenses in your 210s because of persistant bulb failure? Now you know why!
Rant over.

Many of us now have LED rear lights where this is no longer an issue. In any case, I suspect its the long term 5w lamp rather than the occasional 10w one that does the damage.


I do accept though that both arguments have their merits but on consideration, I'm staying on my side of it.

BTW - why stick and rudder? Do we share a hobby by any chance?

 

[st4]

I agree completely Peter, it is as you say all built in,,I have just re read what st4 was saying and you are correct and the normal thing to do

i dont do it always, but sometimes, but wont now at all, thanks.

 

[television]

i dont do it always, but sometimes, but wont now at all, thanks.

If you are stopping and locking,,then it does not make much difference as you are moving the shift to P anyway and no other active selection is passed through when you have stopped