Booked in for a re-map...

KennyN

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Loads of plug-in tuning boxes on the market which would be easy for the insurance company investigator to find without digging too deep. Some of the tuners selling points is that it can be removed in the event of an accident , not if the bonnet is crushed closed or the owner is in the back of an ambulance it cant.

An ECU tune would be harder to uncover but if they really wanted to I would imaging it could be done.

Saying "it must have been like that when I bought it " wouldn`t wash with the insurance companies either as time traceable mods could be uncovered , to back-up or disprove your statement.

My insurance with Admiral only increased by £50 when I had the MPPSK fitted to the BM ,too many £££££ at stake so better to tell them and to be safe than sorry IMHO.

If an insurance company wont accept modifications then I would be looking else where for my 12 months cover.

K
 

kid-jensen

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My point was how would the insurance company blame it on you?

You had NO knowledge of it, because it wasn't you that remapped it.....

You could equally argue that the headlining colour had been changed from standard because it didn't match the previous owner's poodle... You would not be in a position to know because you've never met the poodle...
 

400ixl

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My point was how would the insurance company blame it on you?

You had NO knowledge of it, because it wasn't you that remapped it.....

Would really depend on the situation. These modifications all leave a marker even if it is the write date and changed checksum. If that date was prior to you owning the car then they would have difficulty pinning the issue on you just based on that. If it was in your ownership, then thats different.

Also be very aware what insurance companies do with social media platforms. When I worked for on years ago we wrote bots which scour things like internet forums looking for posts about people having made modifications. We would collect information about that person across multiple sites and social networks and build a profile that often allowed for enough information to be able to identify if that person was insured by the company. If they were, then their record was flagged should a claim be made for fraud investigation. This was 10 years ago and things are far more sophisticated now. So just by posting here you can be flagged.

As for proving the modification was a contributory factor in the claim. Yes to a degree they do. They couldn't refuse a claim for a car being in a flood if they found it had been remapped. If the car had been in an accident on the road then yes they could look to make a case.

Ignorance is also not a legal defence. If you bought a car with aftermarket alloy wheels then you would not be able to plead ignorance that they were not original specification.

Insurance is more lenient these days than it use to be, but if you modify something then declare it as if they find out you can be in a world of pain. There are hundreds of claims modified for remapped cars every year, don't be one of the statistics.
 

Tony Dyson

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My point was how would the insurance company blame it on you?

You had NO knowledge of it, because it wasn't you that remapped it.....

You could equally argue that the headlining colour had been changed from standard because it didn't match the previous owner's poodle... You would not be in a position to know because you've never met the poodle...

Ignorance will never be accepted by any authority as a reason for innocence, when insuring a vehicle the insured makes a declaration of conformity, if you get it wrong it's your responsibility and no-one else's.
 

400ixl

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If in a serious accident, would the Bill REALLY start hacking into your ECU software?

I'm speaking from experience, because this happened to me...

The insurance assessor yes, becoming more and more standard practice now as the tooling to check for modifications is cheap and simple. You don't need to hack anything to get that initial view, just plug a reader in to most cars (some are more complex).

If irregularity is seen then they may start digging deeper if required.

Speaking from experience of helping insurers put it in place.
 

400ixl

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Ignorance will never be accepted by any authority as a reason for innocence, when insuring a vehicle the insured makes a declaration of conformity, if you get it wrong it's your responsibility and no-one else's.

Its not clear cut though. They have to show that you should / would have known. There is always a level of you don't know what you couldn't know. This is where the balance is made both within the insurance claims / fraud processes and if required the ombudsman and court.
 

kid-jensen

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Seems unfair, but life is.

In my case, it could be proved that the remap was done before I bought it, by hacking into the ECU software, but I didn't know one way or the other, because I only found out on the day I sold it...(literally 1/2 hour before the new owner collected it).

I still maintain that the BILL are unlikely to get the IT-Nerds on the case because of the costs involved. After-all, look how long Dieselgate took to discover...
 

400ixl

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As I have said, the IT nerds do not needs to be engaged, and it wouldn't be the BILL (which I assume you mean the police).

The insurance assessor just plugs a handheld device into the car in most cases and it can indicate whether it is OEM or not. Only if you then need deeper forensics would anyone more technical need to be engaged, but this is not usually required these days.

Dieselgate is not in anyway relatable to detecting a non OEM ECU mapping. The insurer doesn't need to know what it is doing, just it has been altered. Two very different things.
 

umblecumbuz

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You are the one insured, and you made the statement of conformity when you took out the cover.
It is your responsibility to satisfy yourself that your vehicle complies.
Unfortunately, ignorance is not a get out clause.
Quite rightly, the insurer can state that you should have checked before you took out the contract.
There ain't no legal wiggle room!
 

oigle

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As I have said, the IT nerds do not needs to be engaged, and it wouldn't be the BILL (which I assume you mean the police).

The insurance assessor just plugs a handheld device into the car in most cases and it can indicate whether it is OEM or not. Only if you then need deeper forensics would anyone more technical need to be engaged, but this is not usually required these days.

Dieselgate is not in anyway relatable to detecting a non OEM ECU mapping. The insurer doesn't need to know what it is doing, just it has been altered. Two very different things.

I have a good hand held device and a scan does NOT show an altered ECU. It comes up with an egr not working but that is it. I think it would take quite sophisticated interrogation to disclose a remap.

Ian.
 

Larkone

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There are two answers you can give to 'has the car been modified?'
Either 'yes' or 'not to my knowledge'. Just make sure that either answer is true as they may be using software - voice risk analysis - that can alert them to someone possibly not telling the truth, especially on claims. Loss adjusters are aptly named and they are not working on your behalf.
 

400ixl

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I have a good hand held device and a scan does NOT show an altered ECU. It comes up with an egr not working but that is it. I think it would take quite sophisticated interrogation to disclose a remap.

Ian.

I can assure you the ones we built can and do and are used. They are not code scanners like your device, they have a specific purpose.

Australia may be far more relaxed about it than UK insurers, it is just not worth the risk here.
 

M80

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While I don't doubt many statements here and I accept insurance will find obscure reasons to deny a claim, that happened to me trying to claim for a broken ski as I didn't report the incident locally (no mention of the requirement in the policy doc).

Where I have cynicism is that an assessor might check the VIN data and state that the tyres are no longer original spec.
On older vehicles it would be unlikely that suspension and steering components would be original MB spec.
Then as is common nowadays various machines are stuck to windscreens and clipped to dash panels with trailing supply leads to them, if not installed in a more permanent fashion.
I've had a few windscreens replaced over the years and wouldn't know if they meet original spec.
A lot of this stuff will be BS and / or CE marked so I assume it's good for purpose, but as the advert "I don't know if the lock complies, nobody knows".

This could get to a point where very few vehicles are viewed as suitably insured and we are at the mercy of a school leaver with a weeks training to say, "an MOT advised on his peddle rubbers and he's replaced with Chinese, got 'im".

Oh, and the authorities should incinerate the vehicle as it might have corona virus.
 

oigle

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While I don't doubt many statements here and I accept insurance will find obscure reasons to deny a claim, that happened to me trying to claim for a broken ski as I didn't report the incident locally (no mention of the requirement in the policy doc).

Where I have cynicism is that an assessor might check the VIN data and state that the tyres are no longer original spec.
On older vehicles it would be unlikely that suspension and steering components would be original MB spec.
Then as is common nowadays various machines are stuck to windscreens and clipped to dash panels with trailing supply leads to them, if not installed in a more permanent fashion.
I've had a few windscreens replaced over the years and wouldn't know if they meet original spec.
A lot of this stuff will be BS and / or CE marked so I assume it's good for purpose, but as the advert "I don't know if the lock complies, nobody knows".

This could get to a point where very few vehicles are viewed as suitably insured and we are at the mercy of a school leaver with a weeks training to say, "an MOT advised on his peddle rubbers and he's replaced with Chinese, got 'im".

Oh, and the authorities should incinerate the vehicle as it might have corona virus.

Just as I said way back in this thread, very few vehicles are not "modified" or changed somewhere once they are a few years old. Different brake pads, tyres, aircleaner elements, filters etc etc. The list goes on. Where does it become "modified"? I believe the insurance company would need to be able to prove that a mod contributed to the accident or claim being made to deny the claim.
 
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M80

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Just as I said way back in this thread, very few vehicles are not "modified" or changed somewhere once they are a few years old. Different brake pads, tyres, aircleaner elements, filters etc etc. The list goes on. Where does it become "modified"? I believe the insurance company would need to be able to prove that a mod contributed to the accident or claim being made to deny the claim.

The little mans issue is that to go up against the legal dept of an insurance co would risk you losing all you've worked for, in the UK at least, as here you get the justice you can afford.
The Ombudsman might have purpose, might.
 

A.J.

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Out of all of this debate surely the best thing is to declare it to the Insurer and be safe from any shocks, please note Tony :rolleyes::)
 

400ixl

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Just as I said way back in this thread, very few vehicles are not "modified" or changed somewhere once they are a few years old. Different brake pads, tyres, aircleaner elements, filters etc etc. The list goes on. Where does it become "modified"? I believe the insurance company would need to be able to prove that a mod contributed to the accident or claim being made to deny the claim.

In the UK we have OEM equivalent parts which meet either EU or BS standards. For insurance purposes, non of these are considered modifications as they meet the same standards as the OEM parts.

So no, in the UK most cars are not modified from the manufacturers specification.
 

malcolm E53 AMG

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Insurers can come across a bit blasé when I mentioned to mine that I intended to change run flats to standard tyres they weren’t interested but as above keep onside just in case, once a claim mechanism starts anything and everything can be checked and probably will be in a serious event
 

AMGeed

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on. Where does it become "modified"? I believe the insurance company would need to be able to prove that a mod contributed to the accident or claim being made to deny the claim.

I believe insurers term "modified" as the car having been remapped to increase performance or made to look more desirable to steal as in body kits, bling alloys, etc. In other words, not as the car left the showroom. Some modifications are not chargeable depending on who you insure with. Some won't even insure you as the OP is finding out.

If you insure a car with a certain output, insurers have decided the risk and calculated the premium. Remap it and it can become a lot more powerful and therefore the risk should be increased along with the premium. Not declaring it gives the insurer ample excuse to decline any claim simply because you haven't paid the correct premium and have withheld information about the car.

It's crazy (in the UK at least) to not declare a modification unless you can afford a total loss on your car and possible legal charges should any accident result in injuries to a third party. And anyone who believes insurance companies can't detect a remap are in denial.
 

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