Car purchase problem.

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
I wonder what advice members here might give following a recent car purchase.
A little background first.

My father is very friendly with a neighbour who has generally looked after him and cooked his meals since my Mother died in 2002. She recently had her car written off and received a £1800 payout from her insurance. As my Father no longer drives, he has previously bought or given her two cars.

I was tasked with finding her a car with low miles, small automatic under £5k. I managed find a Kio Rio auto in excellent condition and my Father duly paid £3900 for the car and taxed it for a year at the dealers.

Now this lady was on holiday in Japan at the time of purchase, and on collecting her last Thursday from Heathrow, she arrived in a wheel chair in very poor health. She had a stomach bug, hadn't eaten for 4 days and was very weak.
I got her home and tried to call yesterday but no answer. I tried again this morning and her cousin who had been told of her illness answered the phone and told me she had passed away earlier this morning!

Without going into too many details, my Dad paid for the car, her name and address is on the V5 returned to the DVLA although my Dad signed the tear off strip. This car is now surplus, and I want to sell it to reclaim the cost for my father. I'm meeting her son this afternoon where I will ask if that is OK although I know he has more important things on his mind.
Is the car noiw part of her estate and subject to probate etc, or can I just agree to sell the car back to the dealer who is open to the idea, dependant on the legalities?

It's a tricky subject, especially with a mourning son, but I want to secure that money for my father without causing upset.
Any views or ideas?
 

400ixl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Messages
438
Reaction score
167
Location
UK
Your Mercedes
E250 AMG Sport Convertible
V5C is the registered keeper, not owner. If your father has an invoice in his name then he should be able to prove he is partially the legal owner. Problem here is of course that some of the funding came from the neighbour in the form of the insurance pay out.

Probably going to be a bit tricky and may need to go through the process, unless your father paid the full amount and the insurance pay out did not contribute. In which case the invoice should be proof he is the full legal owner.
 

Naraic

Moderator
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
10,435
Reaction score
1,040
Your Mercedes
2005 CL500.
So the above and the two answers on the other side all agree, keeper and owner are different and having a receipt is the thing.
 

AJD

Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
15,316
Reaction score
6,484
Location
Suffolk by the Sea, UK.
Your Mercedes
2017 C200 2.0Ltr (P) ///AMG Line, Premium, 4dr. 9G. Brilliant Blue with Alpaca trim
The name on the invoice is the owner not the name on the log book, no question :)
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #5
Excellent. Thanks for the replies.

The insurance payout is still in the womans account. My Father funded the total purchase plus road fund licence.
 

Ken_R

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
691
Reaction score
201
Location
Worcestershire, UK
Your Mercedes
W203 2006 C230 Estate
Or to put it another way. If the vehicle developed a fault and there needed to be interaction with the dealer regarding the rights of a purchaser, who would be the person that would exercise those rights?
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #7
Or to put it another way. If the vehicle developed a fault and there needed to be interaction with the dealer regarding the rights of a purchaser, who would be the person that would exercise those rights?


That would be me, as I located and negociated the purchase of the car. Neither my Father (93 with very poor memory) nor the deceased would be able to do that.

Further to the above, I firmly believe until I check again, that the invoice in in my Fathers name and the Visa debit receipt stapled to that invoice is most certainly from his account.
 

Ken_R

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
691
Reaction score
201
Location
Worcestershire, UK
Your Mercedes
W203 2006 C230 Estate
But you negotiated the purchase on behalf of your Father, not on behalf of your his neighbour. Just imagine, for example, that there became a need for Legal action [regarding the vehicle], whilst you might institute it, the name on any litigation documents would be that of your Father, as the purchaser.

The Law of Contract revolves around three factors. Offer, Acceptance and Realization. Your Father made the offer, the Dealer accepted the offer, and the Realization was when the ownership of the vehicle passed from the Dealer to your Father.

The neighbour was not party to any of the transaction [in Legal terms], and would only be so if your Father 'gifted' her the vehicle, and in many ways that would also have been a Contract in that she would have 'Offered' him the funds banked and he would have 'Accepted' those funds.

As those subsequent steps never took place and, on learning of her Health difficulties, he would have been able to extricate himself from, what was effectively, just a 'plan of action'.

I would take the Dealer up on the offer to return the vehicle and not worry about any Probate claims.
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #9
I would take the Dealer up on the offer to return the vehicle and not worry about any Probate claims.

That will be happening once the dealer is satisfied the car is not part of her estate. He is seeking legal advice Monday.
 

Brizzle

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
336
Reaction score
90
Location
Bristol (UK)
Your Mercedes
C220 CDi Sport (2009MY)
I have recently been through a near identical situation, except that my mother purchased a car for her carer to use and had the V5C in the carer's name. When mother died in November last year the car was deemed to be part of her estate and we had to reclaim it from the carer. The decision was based purely on the fact that the receipt for the car was in mothers' name and the carer had nothing to show that she had either gifted it, or sold it, to her.

I knew that mother had intended for the carer to keep the car and felt really bad about having to take it back from her - so much so that I bought another car ... and then sold it to her for £1 (making sure I gave her a receipt).

I feel pretty sure that any probate solicitor will say the car belongs to your father's estate.

Sorry to hear of your loss, by the way :(
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #11
Seems there could be a problem with ownership.

The invoice is addressed to the deceased woman, but signed at the bottom by my Father with the Visa debit receipt from his account.

I am going to approach the womans son and ask if has any objection to giving my father the V5 when it is returned from the DVLA so he can resell the car and get his money back.

I have back up in that the £1800 payout from her previously written off car is still in her account. That car was given to her by my father on his cessation of driving. I don't think the son will object.
 

peterws1957

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
807
Location
Lancashire
Your Mercedes
sl350 /2004/3.7 and CL65/2009/6.0
Seems there could be a problem with ownership.

The invoice is addressed to the deceased woman, but signed at the bottom by my Father with the Visa debit receipt from his account.

I am going to approach the womans son and ask if has any objection to giving my father the V5 when it is returned from the DVLA so he can resell the car and get his money back.

I have back up in that the £1800 payout from her previously written off car is still in her account. That car was given to her by my father on his cessation of driving. I don't think the son will object.
What a sad and unusual situation to be in. Is the son the sole Executor of the estate or the sole beneficiary do you know? I say this because if there are other parties involved as Executors or beneficiaries legal complications can arise (they can anyway)- I would not personally sell the car at the moment without taking some legal advice about the invoice being in the deceased's name. The honourable thing would be for you to sell the car for your father and get him the money back, but the law sometimes looks at things differently.
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #13
What a sad and unusual situation to be in. Is the son the sole Executor of the estate or the sole beneficiary do you know? I say this because if there are other parties involved as Executors or beneficiaries legal complications can arise (they can anyway)- I would not personally sell the car at the moment without taking some legal advice about the invoice being in the deceased's name. The honourable thing would be for you to sell the car for your father and get him the money back, but the law sometimes looks at things differently.


There is another son who will be a beneficiary too.
I am meeting them tomorrow to discuss the hopeful sale of the car with their blessing.
 

LostKiwi

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
26,629
Reaction score
16,118
Location
Midlands / Charente-Maritime
Your Mercedes
'93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240, 02 R230 SL500 (Malcolm Spec), 04 Smart Roadster Coupe
There is another son who will be a beneficiary too.
I am meeting them tomorrow to discuss the hopeful sale of the car with their blessing.
Good luck. People can be a bit funny when it comes to inheritances.
 

keefysher

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
4,210
Reaction score
2,148
Location
Hampshire
Your Mercedes
W166 GLE350AMG Line 3.0 2017. BMW Z3 2.8 1998.
Seems there could be a problem with ownership.

The invoice is addressed to the deceased woman, but signed at the bottom by my Father with the Visa debit receipt from his account.

I am going to approach the womans son and ask if has any objection to giving my father the V5 when it is returned from the DVLA so he can resell the car and get his money back.

I have back up in that the £1800 payout from her previously written off car is still in her account. That car was given to her by my father on his cessation of driving. I don't think the son will object.

So the invoice was paid by and receipted to your father. The funds came from your father. Title is his. Explain that to the sons and do the deal with the trader. Is the estate over the IHT threshold, not that that is your concern,?

Be your normal pragmatic self Roger, it'll be fine
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #17
Yes Keith, the estate will be over the IHT threshold. House alone is in the region of £480k+

I don't think there will be objections from either son.

Thanks for everyones advice here.
 

peterws1957

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
807
Location
Lancashire
Your Mercedes
sl350 /2004/3.7 and CL65/2009/6.0
Yes I hope everything goes through smoothly. I suppose the worse thing that can happen other than the actual Executors (rather than the beneficiaries) causing problems is that the value of the car is added back into the Estate for Inheritance tax purposes.
Just on a slightly tangential note having been an Executor a few times it surprised me that a will can be altered by the Executors of an estate, as long as a court approves. This death thing can get very complicated sometimes.
 

Naraic

Moderator
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
10,435
Reaction score
1,040
Your Mercedes
2005 CL500.
Yes Keith, the estate will be over the IHT threshold. House alone is in the region of £480k+

I don't think there will be objections from either son.

Thanks for everyones advice here.
Depends whether her late husband ( I presume there was one) used his full IHT allowance on his death. If not it will be added to hers.
 
OP
AMGeed

AMGeed

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,239
Reaction score
3,646
Location
Poole, Dorset
Your Mercedes
2014 W212 E63 Biturbo
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #20
Depends whether her late husband ( I presume there was one) used his full IHT allowance on his death. If not it will be added to hers.

He is long off the scene as she divorced him years ago.
 
Top Bottom