Chelsea Tractors

[3146bj]

That's a tremendous attitude, well done. You wonder why people have such a downer on chelsea tractor drivers, and then you come out with nonsense like that.

It has nothing to do with "Chelsea Tractors" or "Toorak Tractors" as we call them, but everything to do with people being responsible for their actions i.e for walking on a road where they can be hit. Most pedestrian deaths or injuries are with vehicles travelling at low speeds in congested areas where the pedestrian puts the vehicle driver in a situation where collision is unavoidable. In these situations it doesn't matter whether the vehicle is a Mini or a Suburban - somebody gets hurt.

 

[Hibbo]

That's a tremendous attitude, well done. You wonder why people have such a downer on chelsea tractor drivers, and then you come out with nonsense like that.

It has nothing to do with "Chelsea Tractors" or "Toorak Tractors" as we call them, but everything to do with people being responsible for their actions i.e for walking on a road where they can be hit. Most pedestrian deaths or injuries are with vehicles travelling at low speeds in congested areas where the pedestrian puts the vehicle driver in a situation where collision is unavoidable. In these situations it doesn't matter whether the vehicle is a Mini or a Suburban - somebody gets hurt.

It has everything to do with Toorak tractors - you stand more chance of being killed if you are hit by one than if you were hit by a Ford Focus/E-class/Golf/A4/Leon/astra etc etc.

Of course people should be careful crossing the road and whatnot, I see some absolute idiots who must think they are invincible - but to say anyone who gets hit by a car (or toorak tractor!) deserves it is utterly despicable.

 

[television]

It has everything to do with Toorak tractors - you stand more chance of being killed if you are hit by one than if you were hit by a Ford Focus/E-class/Golf/A4/Leon/astra etc etc.

Of course people should be careful crossing the road and whatnot, I see some absolute idiots who must think they are invincible - but to say anyone who gets hit by a car (or toorak tractor!) deserves it is utterly despicable.

I have to agree with Hibbo on this one,its all fact. The figures are out there

Malcolm

 

[hawk20]

Sadly life is not that simple,where there are cars and people, people are going to get hurt.
People will always walk on the road, if not only to get to the other side.

Maybe one day you will be crossing the road at a time when you have something on your mind, or a speeding motorist driving a 4 x 4 with bull bars will get you.

Malcolm

Or maybe a 5 litre V8 sports car driving too fast. Who knows?

 

[Hibbo]

Or maybe a 5 litre V8 sports car driving too fast. Who knows?

If an SL hits you at 20mph you will end up on its bonnet. If an ML hits you at 20mph you will end up underneath it.


Feel free to be pedantic about where you would actually end up given the momentums and other factors, but you get my point.

 

[hawk20]

To sum up its easy to say live and let live but if you are a pedestrian or a motorist in an average size car the likehood is that if one of these vehicles hits you you will not walk away or you will come off a lot worse.

If you are a pedestrian or someone in a Ford Fiesta and you get hit by Malcolm210's 3.2 litre E class, you will come off a lot worse too so let's ban the E class eh?

And just notice how the original attack on 4x4's starts with the environment, finds that doesn't work out too well so moves on to any other argument that comes to hand.

You anti 4x4 people couldn't even define what you think the enemy is. Do you think a 4x4 Fiat Punto is more dangerous to pedestrians than Malcolm 210'e E class?

Is a 4x4 4matic E class dangerous enough to ban or penalise with heavy taxes, while a 'normal' E class is OK. If so why?

Is the 2 wheel drive Honda CRV a chelsea tractor? Just because it can go into 4 wheel drive?

If Mercedes offer 4matic on Television's beloved SL500 will that be a chelsea tractor?

Is a Nissan X trail with two wheel drive a chelsea tractor?

 

[Hibbo]

If you are a pedestrian or someone in a Ford Fiesta and you get hit by Malcolm210's 3.2 litre E class, you will come off a lot worse too so let's ban the E class eh?

And just notice how the original attack on 4x4's starts with the environment, finds that doesn't work out too well so moves on to any other argument that comes to hand.

You anti 4x4 people couldn't even define what you think the enemy is. Do you think a 4x4 Fiat Punto is more dangerous to pedestrians than Malcolm 210'e E class?

Is a 4x4 4matic E class dangerous enough to ban or penalise with heavy taxes, while a 'normal' E class is OK. If so why?

Is the 2 wheel drive Honda CRV a chelsea tractor? Just because it can go into 4 wheel drive?

If Mercedes offer 4matic on Television's beloved SL500 will that be a chelsea tractor?

Is a Nissan X trail with two wheel drive a chelsea tractor?

Hawk my friend, you are now as guilty as anyone of clutching at straws.

You know full well that by "Chelsea Tractors" we mean large cumbersome vehicles such as the ML, RangeRover, X5 etc. The number of driven wheels is irrelevant. As I have said several times, I would use kerb weight to differentiate.

Do you disagree that an ML would cause more harm to a pedestrian than an E-class (all other factors such as speed being equal)?

I would also disagree that you would much worse off being hit by an E-class than a Fiesta; the most important factor here is not the size or weight of the vehicle it is the height of the impact point (bumper/grill area).
A 4matic SL would not have a chest height grill. Really Hawk, I'd expected you to be a little more grown-up than this.

And please don't compare them to buses, vans etc, they are functional vehicles (so please don't chime in with "I need a 4x4 because I live in a swamp and tow a horsebox", that is also functional - congratulations on a sensible vehicle choice).

 

[psmart]

You know full well that by "Chelsea Tractors" we mean large cumbersome vehicles such as the ML, RangeRover, X5 etc. The number of driven wheels is irrelevant. As I have said several times, I would use kerb weight to differentiate.

My motorhome:
a) Costs twice as much as a high end 4x4
b) weighs more than twice as much a 4x4 (5.75 tonne)
c) Obliterates views by its 12.5m train length and 3.4m height.
d) CO2 is off the scale
e) I use it to run kids to school.
f) It would turn even the meateast of muscley bouncers into dog meat if it hit them.
....et al.....

But one doesnt here you rabbitting on about such vehicles.

Prejudice is Prejudice my friend.... if your not rabbitting on about 4x4's, which other group would you direct your misguided prejudice towards?

 

[Hibbo]

My motorhome:
a) Costs twice as much as a high end 4x4
b) weighs more than twice as much a 4x4 (5.75 tonne)
c) Obliterates views by its 12.5m train length and 3.4m height.
d) CO2 is off the scale
e) I use it to run kids to school.
f) It would turn even the meateast of muscley bouncers into dog meat if it hit them.
....et al.....

But one doesnt here you rabbitting on about such vehicles.

Prejudice is Prejudice my friend.... if your not rabbitting on about 4x4's, which other group would you direct your misguided prejudice towards?

For about the fifth time; a motorhome is clearly functional - people buy them to use as a home whilst motoring - hence the name. The vast majority of people do not buy off-roaders to go off-roading.

However I do think using to take the kids to school is a bit, erm, 'inconsiderate'.

Nice boasting by the way!

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

For about the fifth time; a motorhome is clearly functional - !

absolutely, they are designed to cause traffic jams on the A303!

 

[Myros]

5 litre V8 sports car driven too fast

I hope you don't mean me. 30 years a driver, former driving instructor, pedant international, and never do more than 20mph up a residential street regardless of what I'm driving.

Rospa's figures will bear me out. 95% of accidents involve significant driver error. If we can whittle that down, then the choice of vehicle becomes less relevant to the argument.

I'm not perfect btw, but I am aware of my limitations and the dangers that I pose, and try to drive in a safe, yet spirited way, around those limitations.

I have an LHD car. the field of view available makes me hang back more and overtake less. Does this make me safer or more dangerous?

( I should insert something about god-willing and wood-touching here)

 

[kkmfo]

For about the fifth time; a motorhome is clearly functional - people buy them to use as a home whilst motoring - hence the name. The vast majority of people do not buy off-roaders to go off-roading.

However I do think using to take the kids to school is a bit, erm, 'inconsiderate'.

Nice boasting by the way!

You make an excellent point here - its all about what you call them.

I drive a luxury family car that carries my family and significant luggage over long distances in great comfort and safety, even when road and weather conditions are not ideal.
I drive carefully and do not run over pedestrians or drive into small cars.

I didn't buy an "off-roader" and have no intention of going "off-road".
I didn't buy a "4x4" either, but I do recognise the significant benefits of the technology.
And I didn't buy a "Chelsea Tractor".

My car also happens to be a VW Toerag with 4WD.
As well as 4WD, its additional safety features include ESP, EBD, several airbags all over the place, etc etc.
Why is my choice of car so much more offensive to people than say an S Class, 5 Seriese BMW, Volvo estate (huge great big boxy thing)?

On the odd occasion that I take my kids to school the car park is filled with big luxury family cars (several are also 4WD). No kids have been run over. There is no carnage in or around the school.

I often pull up to junctions and find my sight blocked by vans, lorries, MPVs etc. Do you know what I do? I wait until my view is clear before pulling out.

For those of you who are not taken in by the anti-Chelsea Tractor brigade, I suggest you get wise and start using the correct terminology for your "luxury family car".

 

[stever]

You make an excellent point here - its all about what you call them.

I drive a luxury family car that carries my family and significant luggage over long distances in great comfort and safety, even when road and weather conditions are not ideal.
I drive carefully and do not run over pedestrians or drive into small cars.

I didn't buy an "off-roader" and have no intention of going "off-road".
I didn't buy a "4x4" either, but I do recognise the significant benefits of the technology.
And I didn't buy a "Chelsea Tractor".

My car also happens to be a VW Toerag with 4WD.
As well as 4WD, its additional safety features include ESP, EBD, several airbags all over the place, etc etc.
Why is my choice of car so much more offensive to people than say an S Class, 5 Seriese BMW, Volvo estate (huge great big boxy thing)?

On the odd occasion that I take my kids to school the car park is filled with big luxury family cars (several are also 4WD). No kids have been run over. There is no carnage in or around the school.

I often pull up to junctions and find my sight blocked by vans, lorries, MPVs etc. Do you know what I do? I wait until my view is clear before pulling out.

For those of you who are not taken in by the anti-Chelsea Tractor brigade, I suggest you get wise and start using the correct terminology for your "luxury family car".

A very myopic post:
1. In common parlance, a Touareg is a 4x4. I think most people would recognise it as such.
2. The CO2 emissions range from 265 to 355 g/ km CO2 (all band G - the worst category). The combined fuel economy ranges from 19.1 to 28.8 mpg. Far poorer than the other cars you mention.
3. Just because no-one has been mown down by one at your local school doesn't make 4x4s safe. Is this really what you are suggesting?
4. They are much more dangerous to a pedestrian than a conventional saloon of the types you mention, due to the higher front end.
5. They are more dangerous to other car drivers again due to the high front end and also due to the weight.

Now the fact that you claim to be a careful driver is to be applauded, but that will be of small comfort if a child stepped out in front of you and you were unable to stop. A touareg has less luggage capacity than an e-class estate, a car which has much better environmental performance and is safer to pedestrians and other motorists. I think that most would argue it is a safe and comfortable car with a high degree of luxury. You've said that you're not going off-road. So why pick the touareg?

 

[kkmfo]

A very myopic post:
1. In common parlance, a Touareg is a 4x4. I think most people would recognise it as such.
2. The CO2 emissions range from 265 to 355 g/ km CO2 (all band G - the worst category). The combined fuel economy ranges from 19.1 to 28.8 mpg. Far poorer than the other cars you mention.
3. Just because no-one has been mown down by one at your local school doesn't make 4x4s safe. Is this really what you are suggesting?
4. They are much more dangerous to a pedestrian than a conventional saloon of the types you mention, due to the higher front end.
5. They are more dangerous to other car drivers again due to the high front end and also due to the weight.

Now the fact that you claim to be a careful driver is to be applauded, but that will be of small comfort if a child stepped out in front of you and you were unable to stop. A touareg has less luggage capacity than an e-class estate, a car which has much better environmental performance and is safer to pedestrians and other motorists. I think that most would argue it is a safe and comfortable car with a high degree of luxury. You've said that you're not going off-road. So why pick the touareg?

1. Common parlance as pushed by an ignorant media with an agenda dominated by a wish to appeal to the widest possible audience. Clearly there are more people with small cars than there are with big ones.
"Most people" do not seem to consider all the facts. They follow the herd and label "4x4s" as the devil incarnate.
The number of large luxury cars on our roads will always be limited by market forces - they are relatively expensive and therefore will sell less than mass market alternatives. There is no need for the massive over-reaction that has been evident for the past couple of years.
2. Quoted fuel economy figures are way different to what is achievable in the real world, and in practice fuel economy is significantly impacted by driving style. Who says MY Touareg gets better or worse fuel economy than someone else's E Class, S Class 5 Series etc.
A few years ago 28 mpg was considered pretty good. No doubt there are a huge number of older cars doing far less mpg.
If you drive a car you are using fossil fuel. It should only be the marginal impact of driving a Touareg over a theoretically more fuel efficient car that should be considered.
3. Are you really suggesting that "4x4"s are unsafe? Compared to what - bicycles, lorries, vans, saloons?? Drivers have accidents, not cars
4. I drive at a very responsible speed, particularly in areas where there is a higher likelihood of pedestrians in the vicinity. Of course my big car would hurt someone more than a little car, but drivers/pedestrians create accidents, not the cars.
I have 2 young children. I don't want to harm any children. But that doesn't mean I have to stop driving in any area where a child could feasibly be waiting to jump unsuspectingly from the pavement to under the wheels of my car.
It would be interesting to know just how many such accidents there are in the UK that are not caused by drink driving.

5. There are many many many aspects to road safety. Most of them relate to driving style. I would much rather be driving responsibly, well within the capabilities of my Touareg, than have my kids sat in the back of a Fiesta (for example) doing 80mph on the motorway with heavy luggage in the back. How well do you think one of them would handle/brake in the event of an emergency?????

If a small child stepped out "in front of" any car, the child would be hit. No car can stop instantly from any speed.
Once again, people cause accidents, not cars. As adults, we should always act responsibly to ensure that children are not placed in danger.

I picked the Touareg because it satisfied all the criteria that I was looking for, at the right price.
I am delighted that because of general market perception I can buy a Touareg significantly cheaper than some other cars with similar capabilities and specification/age/mileage.
I also happen to enjoy the fact that I can choose to spend my money on whatever I like.
I am not ashamed of my choice, and I just wish that others would stop preaching at me.

 

[stever]

1. Common parlance as pushed by an ignorant media with an agenda dominated by a wish to appeal to the widest possible audience. Clearly there are more people with small cars than there are with big ones.
"Most people" do not seem to consider all the facts. They follow the herd and label "4x4s" as the devil incarnate.
The number of large luxury cars on our roads will always be limited by market forces - they are relatively expensive and therefore will sell less than mass market alternatives. There is no need for the massive over-reaction that has been evident for the past couple of years.
2. Quoted fuel economy figures are way different to what is achievable in the real world, and in practice fuel economy is significantly impacted by driving style. Who says MY Touareg gets better or worse fuel economy than someone else's E Class, S Class 5 Series etc.
A few years ago 28 mpg was considered pretty good. No doubt there are a huge number of older cars doing far less mpg.
If you drive a car you are using fossil fuel. It should only be the marginal impact of driving a Touareg over a theoretically more fuel efficient car that should be considered.
3. Are you really suggesting that "4x4"s are unsafe? Compared to what - bicycles, lorries, vans, saloons?? Drivers have accidents, not cars
4. I drive at a very responsible speed, particularly in areas where there is a higher likelihood of pedestrians in the vicinity. Of course my big car would hurt someone more than a little car, but drivers/pedestrians create accidents, not the cars.
I have 2 young children. I don't want to harm any children. But that doesn't mean I have to stop driving in any area where a child could feasibly be waiting to jump unsuspectingly from the pavement to under the wheels of my car.
It would be interesting to know just how many such accidents there are in the UK that are not caused by drink driving.

5. There are many many many aspects to road safety. Most of them relate to driving style. I would much rather be driving responsibly, well within the capabilities of my Touareg, than have my kids sat in the back of a Fiesta (for example) doing 80mph on the motorway with heavy luggage in the back. How well do you think one of them would handle/brake in the event of an emergency?????

If a small child stepped out "in front of" any car, the child would be hit. No car can stop instantly from any speed.
Once again, people cause accidents, not cars. As adults, we should always act responsibly to ensure that children are not placed in danger.

I picked the Touareg because it satisfied all the criteria that I was looking for, at the right price.
I am delighted that because of general market perception I can buy a Touareg significantly cheaper than some other cars with similar capabilities and specification/age/mileage.
I also happen to enjoy the fact that I can choose to spend my money on whatever I like.
I am not ashamed of my choice, and I just wish that others would stop preaching at me.

1. How is common parlance ignorant? Does the car in question not have four driven wheels?

2. MPG is calculated by a standard test, allowing a fair comparison between different models. You might like to compare the mpg of the Touareg with the other models you mentioned earlier. How you drive compared with someone else is a different argument entirely. We are talking comparison of the cars here, not the driver. And 28mpg is the best it can manage - the least powerful engine in the range. Why are you comparing it with old cars? Red herring.

3. As you well know, but choose not to acknowledge, the 4x4 will cause more damage in the event of an accident, all other factors being equal. The evidence proves this conclusively. An analogy to your argument is "people kill people, not guns". So why is it that countries with the poorest gun control have the highest gun crime rates? 4x4s are less safe to other road users than a normally proportioned family car. Fact.

4. Again refer to the analogy re guns. You acknowledge that your car would cause more damage, and we know this is due to its shape and weight. If a pedestrian stepped in front of my car tomorrow, it would be their fault, but I would not want their death on my conscience. Their death is a more likely outcome if I were to be driving a 4x4 instead of a smaller car if I were driving at the same speed. You say you don't want to harm children yet you drive a car that has its bumper at a child's head height.

5. Good. I'm glad you drive safely. But everyone thinks they're a safe driver, which we know can't be true. I don't know why you are talking about fiestas in response to a post in which I compared your car to an E-class estate which is a much more realistic comparison. Incidentally, I suspect the E-class would handle better than the touareg in the event of an emergency due to its lower centre of gravity.

If you are not ashamed of your choice and are fed up of being preached at why are you on here on a thread called "chelsea tractors" trying to defend it on issues where the evidence shows it to be indefensible?

 

[Hibbo]

1. How is common parlance ignorant? Does the car in question not have four driven wheels?

2. MPG is calculated by a standard test, allowing a fair comparison between different models. You might like to compare the mpg of the Touareg with the other models you mentioned earlier. How you drive compared with someone else is a different argument entirely. We are talking comparison of the cars here, not the driver. And 28mpg is the best it can manage - the least powerful engine in the range. Why are you comparing it with old cars? Red herring.

3. As you well know, but choose not to acknowledge, the 4x4 will cause more damage in the event of an accident, all other factors being equal. The evidence proves this conclusively. An analogy to your argument is "people kill people, not guns". So why is it that countries with the poorest gun control have the highest gun crime rates? 4x4s are less safe to other road users than a normally proportioned family car. Fact.

4. Again refer to the analogy re guns. You acknowledge that your car would cause more damage, and we know this is due to its shape and weight. If a pedestrian stepped in front of my car tomorrow, it would be their fault, but I would not want their death on my conscience. Their death is a more likely outcome if I were to be driving a 4x4 instead of a smaller car if I were driving at the same speed. You say you don't want to harm children yet you drive a car that has its bumper at a child's head height.

5. Good. I'm glad you drive safely. But everyone thinks they're a safe driver, which we know can't be true. I don't know why you are talking about fiestas in response to a post in which I compared your car to an E-class estate which is a much more realistic comparison. Incidentally, I suspect the E-class would handle better than the touareg in the event of an emergency due to its lower centre of gravity.

If you are not ashamed of your choice and are fed up of being preached at why are you on here on a thread called "chelsea tractors" trying to defend it on issues where the evidence shows it to be indefensible?

YEAH!
(Is there an emoticon for leaning over someone's shoulder and pointing at someone?)

 

[Andy Wr]

It is a real shame that this thread has turned so ugly, whilst driving my van today (Transit sized) I was given a lot of thought to 4 x 4's and what the problem is with them. Manufacturers have a lot to answer for and could improve things so much better with a little thought. Regarding the height from the ground to the bumper of a 4 x 4 why do manufacturers not have air suspension that is by default set as always low as a safe road car while driving say for example over 25 mph and raised suspension height is only possible while in say low gear ratio mode or at low speed only, ground clearence height is only really required when off road or at low speeds and even then sometimes more height is required which I found out at my expense when I bent and twisted my rear cross member which supports the gearbox when it grounded, I dont need raised ride height all the time.

Wheel base, why dont luxury manufacturers offer short wheelbase versions of their cars, the cheaper end of the market do, my car has permament 4 x 4 engaged, 2 / 4 wd selectable would be more economical to use, big engines, a 2 litre diesel turbo can provide quite a bit of power.

I think all the rants should be directed at the manufacturers not forum members.

I am waiting anxiously for sight of the new MB 4 x 4 based on the new C class floor pan, hopefully MB will think carefully about the design and by coming up with a practical 4 x 4, smaller than a ML might be the start of a new trend which all manufacturers will follow.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

I think that this thread has been done to death
Its time it was closed and we all moved on:!: :!:
Lets all drive what we want and can afford as long as we do it with respect and consideration for everybody else!! At the moment it is not against the law to drive a 4x4.IF it is outlawed then fine.Lets all try and live our entire lives (NOT JUST WHEN WE ARE IN A CAR) thinking about others. The world would be a much better place regardless of the type of car that you drive.

Bob.

Residing down the bottom of a very very very muddy farm track.

P.S A lot of X5 drivers do seem to be agressive tossers(WHOOPS)

 

[BarryG]

Want to start a discussion on "Religion" thats a nice calming subject?

 

[psmart]

I think that this thread has been done to death
Its time it was closed and we all moved on:!: :!:

TopCat, Slinky, DavidsSL...? This thread is going round and round like a merry go round, and it is causing inter-agro between members, any chance of closing it?

Ill start a new thread on "Religion of Chelsea Tractors", keep Eric and Barry happy