Define 'a driver's car'?

[philharve]

Hi All

I recently found myself in a lengthy debate with my indie about the exact definition of 'a driver's car'.

We were discussing high speed stability of certain Mercedes models and the sometimes quirky, twitchy, over-sensitive handling of others when my indie suddenly used this expression to describe this latter group. I soon realised that we held different views of what 'a driver's car' is.

We parted company agreeing to disagree but it left me with an uneasy feeling that he might just be right because, after all, his knowledge comes from years of professional experience working on this marque. It was if my indie was saying to me that if I was not confident of handling a car at speed, despite its handling characteristics, which may include some slight imperfections, then I was not a 'real' driver. It sounded like a criticism.

I have never driven a F1 car though I have sat in one. I would be the first to admit that I probably couldn't drive such a car and it require a highly skilled driver of exceptional ability - a 'real' driver - to master it. I don't have this level of skill or ability but I can drive quickly if the vehicle is vice free and forgiving. Speed does not unduly worry me but I know my limitations.

But returning to the world of fast road vehicles and supercars ... what defines a driver's car? Is it its speed. Is it its handling characteristics? What?

When can someone be considered a 'real' driver or is this term only applicable to those at home on the racing track?

REGARDS

Phil

 

[oigle]

Wow - that is a question that could open a real can of worms.
I think everyone has their own ideas of what makes a "drivers car" depending on how they drive and what their personal preferences are in a car. To me a drivers car has to be many things.
1. Satisfactory straight line performance without being a supercar - maybe 0 -60 in 6 to 7 secs would be enough. Sharp throttle response is a must.
2. A ride and handling package that provides comfort as well as confidence inspiring handling. I love a car that you can just "drive" a secondary road at quite high speed with the confidence it will brake as you want it to and handle corners with a neutral stance and not be thrown off line by bumps mid-corner. It must be able to do the above on poorish secondary roads. Steering must have a reasonable amount of feel - hate dead steering.
3. Be quiet in respect to road noise - hate some cars for that reason. Noise is very tiring and frays the nerves on long journeys.
4. Comfortable interior - seats, driving position, visibility, head and leg room etc.

As far as being a "real" driver, I suggest that anyone who wants to become a good driver should, apart from learning the basics of defensive driving, join a sporting car club and learn to drive hard on slippery dirt surfaces. Car control in adverse conditions is a must if you want to be able to react to emergencies in everyday driving - snow, ice, aquaplaning, sliding on a wet road, emergency braking etc etc. Doing an advanced driving course introduces one to that art but, like most things, regular practice is necessary to gain confidence and to do things automatically when necessary. Too many drivers don't learn any of these arts and the road toll is full of them and their victims. I don't consider Formula ! drivers to be best of so-called "real" drivers. They are very much "specialist" drivers and are superb at what they do. No doubt they are generally very good drivers in other situations too but I believe the best drivers in the world are the top rally drivers rather than race drivers. Their skills are out of this world. To sit beside one (and I have) is both the most thrilling and terrifying experience I have ever had in a car. When one is driven in a manner outside of one's own abilities in adverse conditions, "death" seems very close!! Even though I was an experienced rally driver, I will admit to panic in that situation!!

That's my 2 bob's worth. Be interested to see what others think.

 

[jibcl500]

Porsche 911 without a doubt.
Those that have owned one will know what im talking about.
jib

 

[Geryatrix]

My definition of a "drivers car" would be a car that is so well set-up that the driver gets constant feedback of the cars' grip and the car is responsive enough to allow the driver to make instant corrections when the grip reduces.

With modern cars there are so many electronic gadgets looking after the power to the wheels that although modern cars are safer, some of the skill/fun element has been taken away.

Try driving a Mini Cooper S from 1969, or a modern caterham 7 to see the diference.

 

[jberks]

My definition would have to be what I experienced once many years ago in my mums BM* 318.
Driving near Oban in Scotland, I was following a friend in his SD1 Vitesse (I said it was a while back). After a while of flying along those winding and sweeping roads, it dawned on me that I was no longer 'driving' but I was just thinking the car through the corners. It wasn't the fastest thing on the road, nor the grippiest but the feel and balance meant that I could drive the car through instinct, almost becoming part of the car.

The above definition wouldn't be classed as the most fun or exciting drive, though I did enjoy it and it's stayed with me over the years, but when you and the car become one machine, to me thats a true drivers car.

Can't say I've experienced that in a merc or that I believe the merc is capable of delivering that amount of feedback but then it has other positives.

 

[drivinggod09]

hmmm my mate is a rally driver and can outbrake out corner and out accelerate a slr mcclaren and lambo all because he has bought a old subaru impreza if you listen to him this is a true drivers car but i advise you not to or you might fall asleep. Ive always been led to believe that a BMW is a true drivers car with the slick manual gearbox and firm ride and i suppose as much as i hate to admit they are very good cars and if i wanted something to chuck into corners on a track a BMW 3 series would be right up there , In a MB you just dont feel as connected to the vehicle which is how i would define a drivers car dont get me wrong its great handling and fast and you can really cover some distance with ease but i dont think the autobox helps it to feel one with the driver

 

[stumpy]

That's a hard one to define these days. My best car for feeling connected was the venerable Pug 205 GTi 1.9 - a car which you felt always wanted to kill you. The E30 BMW was great too. But modern cars have more conflicting briefs to fulfil these days like safety, comfort, environmental concerns, pedestrian safe front ends blah blah. Take wheels for example, we know big wheels ruin the ride and handling to a certain degree, but fashion dictates we need them and with ever increasing weight of cars (due to all the stuff mentioned earlier) bigger brakes are needed, thus big wheels. A car which I really like driving is the Smart 4/4 (don't laugh). It is not so fast it will scare you, but it is light and chuckable which makes it fun, and because it doesn't have oodles of grunt, you have to make the most of the handling and every last bhp. Just don't tell the missus

 

[rf065]

hmmm my mate is a rally driver and can outbrake out corner and out accelerate a slr mcclaren and lambo all because he has bought a old subaru impreza

My son is much the same with his Playstation

Russ

 

[jubhi]

My definition of a driver's car is a car that requires great driver skill when driving at the limit. The likes of Porsche 911, BMW E30 M3, Shelby GT500, Ferrari F40 and the likes. Even any 55 or 63 AMG.

Pretty much highly powerful RWD cars really. The skill involved to drive these monsters at the limit and to control powerslides is a lot harder than it seems when watching Tiff Needall drift around bends all day long.

IMHO cars the likes of Evo's and Impreza albeit fast cars are not drivers cars because the Active Yaw Control and Diff Control sorts all the handling out for you, so you simply point it in the direction you want to go and foot to the floor in most cases. Having owned a 2005 Impreza STI PPP I can say that these cars are quick but the handling is so good any decent driver can drive them to the limit, but to driver a 911 Turbo to the limit is a different league all together.

 

[coxyhog]

In the early '80's I had a Mk 2 RS2000 which was really fun and engaging to drive but I wouldn't want anything like that now.I guess if I did I'd be in a Subaru.
On the subject of F1 drivers go back 40 or 50 years & the likes of Stirling Moss used to race in an F1 event then drive across Europe to do something like the Mille Miglia.
Now that was what I call driving.

 

[star]

Hmmm what about a Ferrari 360 CS. Does everything without the eletronics taking over. having driven a Lambo gayardo, very quick car but not very involving unless you push it at silly speeds, it could have been any other fast mordern car, the ferrari wins hands down.

 

[hardtop]

i dont think its how fast but how it makes you feel i have had a 205gti 1.9 .mk1 golf gti . mk1 scirocco storm . rs2000 mk2 . astra mk1 gte . all fun and a joy to drive just wish i still had them

 

[100%Bitch]

I think a driver's car is whatever is inside your head, and it differs from person to person. To me, my car is almost the ultimate, and whenever I drive it I have a grin on my face. :grin:

To me that's what it means.

 

[Mr Teddy Bear]

hmmm my mate is a rally driver and can outbrake out corner and out accelerate a slr mcclaren and lambo all because he has bought a old subaru impreza if you listen to him this is a true drivers car but i advise you not to or you might fall asleep. Ive always been led to believe that a BMW is a true drivers car with the slick manual gearbox and firm ride and i suppose as much as i hate to admit they are very good cars and if i wanted something to chuck into corners on a track a BMW 3 series would be right up there , In a MB you just dont feel as connected to the vehicle which is how i would define a drivers car dont get me wrong its great handling and fast and you can really cover some distance with ease but i dont think the autobox helps it to feel one with the driver

I think that my auto box is just superb. When hurrying along a little used B road the auto changed down going into the corner allowing the throttle to tighten the nose beautifully...............
I think JBERKS description hits the nail on the head for me.........................

 

[Dave's E55 AMG]

Define 'a driver's car'?

or

How long's a piece of string?

 

[coxyhog]

I think a driver's car is whatever is inside your head, and it differs from person to person. To me, my car is almost the ultimate, and whenever I drive it I have a grin on my face. :grin:

To me that's what it means.

That sums it up for me,whenever I have to drive somewhere I enjoy it in my present car.I look forward to it.
Mind you I don't have to drive to work.

 

[philharve]

There is no simple definition

Hi All

Thankyou for your opinions, you have confirmed what I suspected, there is no simple answer to this question.

Every driver has their own definition and from this small sample it is clear that whenever someone mentions 'a driver's car', the next question should be, what do you mean by a driver's car?

I tune in to most of the car programmes on TV, e.g. Top Gear, Fifth Gear, etc., and this expression is often used by presenters. However, I suspect they use it in a very narrow context to refer to a particular type of vehicle which can be very misleading unless you share their definition. But how many members have heard a presenter say, my definition of a driver's car is ... (followed by their definition)?

I have the same problem when I hear cars described as: Cool, Tepid, Hot. It's all rubbish because there is no common frame of reference.

REGARDS

Phil

 

[stumpy]

Hi All

Thankyou for your opinions, you have confirmed what I suspected, there is no simple answer to this question.

Every driver has their own definition and from this small sample it is clear that whenever someone mentions 'a driver's car', the next question should be, what do you mean by a driver's car?

I tune in to most of the car programmes on TV, e.g. Top Gear, Fifth Gear, etc., and this expression is often used by presenters. However, I suspect they use it in a very narrow context to refer to a particular type of vehicle which can be very misleading unless you share their definition. But how many members have heard a presenter say, my definition of a driver's car is ... (followed by their definition)?

I have the same problem when I hear cars described as: Cool, Tepid, Hot. It's all rubbish because there is no common frame of reference.

REGARDS

Phil

Had a bit of a blast last night in the Spur on the way home from a job and I was staggered how much fun it was to drive. For a car so big and heavy it is an amazing achievement. Like you say, everyone has their own frame of reference for the original question.

 

[psmart]

Bit late to post, but there only really is one answer, 'the person driving'!

What use is a 911 with a nob in it, no balls, no thrill for life, just got the money and follows the rules, not a drivers car, not a real driver.

Take a pauper, full of life, loves cars and eagerness and willing to admit mistakes and correct them, put him into a 2CV, you have a drivers car and a real driver because both are going to the very limits, max out on the car, max out on the skills, max out on the joy of life and the grin on the face.

All cars are drivers cars, you just need a real driver.

 

[oigle]

Bit late to post, but there only really is one answer, 'the person driving'!

What use is a 911 with a nob in it, no balls, no thrill for life, just got the money and follows the rules, not a drivers car, not a real driver.

Take a pauper, full of life, loves cars and eagerness and willing to admit mistakes and correct them, put him into a 2CV, you have a drivers car and a real driver because both are going to the very limits, max out on the car, max out on the skills, max out on the joy of life and the grin on the face.

All cars are drivers cars, you just need a real driver.

Good one psmart. Right on the money. An old Corolla in the forestry going sideways is as much fun as any car if driven to its limits.