Dim HIDs W210

[Rappey69]

umm, something that cost billions ,can only light for a millionth of a second and needs a whole laboratory hardly compares to a glass lamp.
Factor in cost for car lighting, then laser is currently no, a £20 xenon hid v a £20 led, the hid blows the led away ..

 

[Craiglxviii]

umm, something that cost billions ,can only light for a millionth of a second and needs a whole laboratory hardly compares to a glass lamp.

They're both emitters of light. And it's a petawatt laser. What's not to like?

 

[Rappey69]

I am surprised no one has looked into or submitted ideas for turning the luxor light to led... Would decrease the annual running costs dramatically...
Light houses are not yet led, but they are working on it and i was surprised at how small the led array is to be visible at up to 25 miles !

 

[Craiglxviii]

I am surprised no one has looked into or submitted ideas for turning the luxor light to led... Would decrease the annual running costs dramatically...
Light houses are not yet led, but they are working on it and i was surprised at how small the led array is to be visible at up to 25 miles !

Cost really. An LED array of that density isn't yet possible. We get really weird stuff happening at the micro level on huge arrays, things like the heat from one chip hitting another laterally and bouncing around in a surface layer effect without entering the PCB and cooling system. So the array would have to be very big to get enough surface area to deploy big chips. Yeah. It's complicated.

There's a big difference between being visible (lighthouses) and illumination (the Luxor light). Remember the logarithmic eye response.

 

[JimM]

Hi Craig,

Apologies for not responding sooner, been busy.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to explain.

Naturally I'm more bemused as you can imagine, that manufacturers make claims that can be easily disproved in lab conditions that you are familiar with.

Now, just to clarify and confirm...

You are using HID bulbs in your cars. I know that HID upgrade bulbs do only claim +30% to +50% more "light" than their equivalent standard HID bulbs, that's quite clear and matches your earlier confirmation of about 30-40% more light.

And I think that's quite an achievement for HIDs.

But, the claims from 3 manufacturers above of +130% and +150% are for the Halogen style bulbs, H7 in my case. These surely cannot produce as little as +30%-40% more and get away with such a claim if it's so easily disproved by such a vast margin?

Are your findings about H7 bulbs, or about D2S /D2R HID upgrade bulbs?

By my own experience the Ring +120% H7 Upgrade bulbs which I fitted to my S Type Jag are definitely a lot brighter, light the road surface much better, and light more of the road ahead than the car's standard H7 bulbs I replaced with these.

And of course a great number of motorists are using these too and have found them to do what they say on the tin.

Somewhere in my garage there's a pair of Philips Extreme Vision +130% H7s waiting for me to fit to my Merc but of course they are for main beams, and my dimwit bulbs are the expensive D2S HIDs. I'm not happy to spend £70 on a pair of bulbs, as you can imagine.

Thanks again for your time.

By the way chaps, can I improve the fogs without great expense?

They don't light much of the road, maybe 4-5 feet only.

The best lamps were those in my old W123 E280, W124? 300SEL and (Dunno wot) 380SLC.

After those, Mercs seem to have gone downhill with these plastic frog-eye headlamps and I'm surprised that the glass fogs on the W210 are so poor.
.

 

[LostKiwi]

Why would you want to improve your fog lights? Any additional light will just reflect back off the fog into your eyes.
Fogs lights are also intended to deliver a flat wide beam to illuminate the verges better. Such a pattern also reduces the amount of light reflecting back off the fog.

I can't remember the last time I needed to use fog lights....

 

[Craiglxviii]

Why would you want to improve your fog lights? Any additional light will just reflect back off the fog into your eyes.
Fogs lights are also intended to deliver a flat wide beam to illuminate the verges better. Such a pattern also reduces the amount of light reflecting back off the fog.

I can't remember the last time I needed to use fog lights....

Foglamps by regulation are limited to -4 degree maximum on the X axis. So dependent on the positioning of the foglamps, more or less of the road will be illuminated- most cars have them mounted in the lower bumper precisely to limit the amount of road kit by what is only a broadly controlled beam pattern.

As LK, they're a hemisemidemi useless device, I've only needed foglamps once in the last 5 years and most manufacturers are getting rid of them in favour of improved headlamps now anyway.

 

[JimM]

That's part of my problem chaps, I need to use them on country lanes where the HIDs are rubbish, light glare from oncoming cars wipes out my dipped beams.

They don't light the verges at all, it's just a halo front left and right.

My old Mercs did, they were great, and gave a good light to around 10 feet in front.

Do yours on the W210?

Maybe mine are adjusted down too far?

 

[LostKiwi]

So you're using them when it's not foggy?

There's a clue in the name.

NOTHING annoys me more when I'm in my Roadster than some idiot with their fog lights on destroying my night vision (a low slung car gets not only glare off the lights themselves but also reflected light off the road surface).

If you want to argue that you need them to see because of other cars coming towards you you won't mind if I use high beams to see because you've dazzled me....

 

[Craiglxviii]

Replies in your post in bold again.

Hi Craig,

Apologies for not responding sooner, been busy. No problem, real life gets in the way sometimes

Thanks again for taking the trouble to explain. Quite alright, lighting is an incredibly complex subject that few people even in the automotive design industry fully understand. Even the lighting design engineers.

Naturally I'm more bemused as you can imagine, that manufacturers make claims that can be easily disproved in lab conditions that you are familiar with. Think of them as marketing claims. Well, that's exactly what they are. The reference to Olay I made wasn't a joke, I took that from a TV advert that was on when I was replying to you the last time. That's exactly what the claims made on upgrade bulbs are. Hence why I made the point about what units of measure the manufacturers are using. They don't state them because, if they did, the claims could be measured and verified or disproved.

Now, just to clarify and confirm...

You are using HID bulbs in your cars. I know that HID upgrade bulbs do only claim +30% to +50% more "light" than their equivalent standard HID bulbs, that's quite clear and matches your earlier confirmation of about 30-40% more light. I have three cars. One has HiD & H7. One has bi-HiD, one has full LED.

And I think that's quite an achievement for HIDs. They're a technically advanced, very efficient, high efficacy lighting sourceh.

But, the claims from 3 manufacturers above of +130% and +150% are for the Halogen style bulbs, H7 in my case. These surely cannot produce as little as +30%-40% more and get away with such a claim if it's so easily disproved by such a vast margin? Why not? They're marketing claims. They can surely do whatever they like. Seriously, watch any advert on TV where the product requires subjective judgement.

Are your findings about H7 bulbs, or about D2S /D2R HID upgrade bulbs? Every lighting source going.

By my own experience the Ring +120% H7 Upgrade bulbs which I fitted to my S Type Jag are definitely a lot brighter, light the road surface much better, and light more of the road ahead than the car's standard H7 bulbs I replaced with these.

And of course a great number of motorists are using these too and have found them to do what they say on the tin.

Somewhere in my garage there's a pair of Philips Extreme Vision +130% H7s waiting for me to fit to my Merc but of course they are for main beams, and my dimwit bulbs are the expensive D2S HIDs. I'm not happy to spend £70 on a pair of bulbs, as you can imagine. Why not? I did for the low beam lamps on my 215 and it really made a big difference. OEM to Osram Xenarc Nightbreaker, cost me just under £100. And that is, because regardless of what I've said of the claims made, the u[graded bulbs DO make a real difference. Just (usually) nothing like the claims made.

Thanks again for your time. You're very welcome, don't mention it.

By the way chaps, can I improve the fogs without great expense?

They don't light much of the road, maybe 4-5 feet only.

The best lamps were those in my old W123 E280, W124? 300SEL and (Dunno wot) 380SLC.

After those, Mercs seem to have gone downhill with these plastic frog-eye headlamps and I'm surprised that the glass fogs on the W210 are so poor.
.

I've already commented on the front foglamps in another post, however big word of caution here. Foglamps are specifically meant to light the verges when driving in heavy fog, while at low speed. If you try to use them to illuminate the road ahead you'll be breaking the law.

 

[JimM]

Thanks again Craig.

Ref the fog lamps...

My old Mercs lit up about 10 feet ahead. All of them. These do nothing at all.

When do they become Daytime Running Lights?

The new Mercs and some VWs appear to have them on all the time.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Thanks again Craig.

Ref the fog lamps...

My old Mercs lit up about 10 feet ahead. All of them. These do nothing at all.

When do they become Daytime Running Lights?

The new Mercs and some VWs appear to have them on all the time.

Fogs and DRLs can share the same lamp. VW did this for a number of years. Cost, you see, for the cost of one housing you get two functions. The difference is in beam angle; if fogs and DRLs share a housing they have separate reflectors to give the two beam patterns. I forget the min X axis for DRLs but they're there for outward visibility so they're designed to be seen, as opposed to allowing you to see. They're also limited to 600lm to prevent dazzling of oncoming drivers.

Much work has been done over the last 15-20 years in cracking down on foglamp usage, specifically due to the dazzling issue that LK mentioned. It was "the thing" in the early noughties to have front fogs and sidelights on all the time and this just exacerbated the issue. So I suspect your current fogs have much "poorer" illumination because they've been dragged back to doing just the foglamp role.

 

[JimM]

You're right about the fog lamps Craig. Totally NAFF. Shame. They don't light the verge enough to be useable.

So chaps I need a bit more of your thoughts on the HIDs...

I went orf to buy the Philips Xenarc +50% bulbs.

They are 4800K.

But my fingers just wouldn't let me click "Pay" at £64 each.

I found Osram for less, £34-£49 each on eBay, £29.99 on AutoBulbs Direct.

They are standard HIDs, 4300K.

ABD also have Twenty20 brand "standard" HID bulbs, 5000K, for £35 each.

Same problem with fingers. Just won't let me press that goldarned button!

So I decided to look further afield.

I discovered some good info:-

• D2S are for Projector HID headlamps
• D2R are for Reflector HID headlamps, and
• D2C are for both types.
• D2S and D2R are exclusively keyed and won't fit in the wrong headlamp, but
• D2C have both keys and fit reflector and projector headlamps.
• D2R have a painted shield on the glass/quartz to prevent radiated light from dazzling oncoming drivers because the reflector can't do that.
• D2S are clear glass/quartz because the beam is focussed by the projector to not dazzle oncoming drivers.

So I would forget D2C bulbs, I couldn't find any on eBay,, so just get the right ones for your headlamp type.

And I also found so many differences in colour temperature charts before I started this thread that they are pretty useless in defining the temperature range of white. Some don't have a white band at all, but go from yellow to blue.

To me it looks white from the manufacturers' 4300K up to 5000K, above which it gets tinged with enough blue that some sellers describe and sell them as "blueish" from 5500K.

To continue...

Among several cheaper sellers even down to £12 per pair, I found "Genuine LUNEX 4300K +50%" bulbs on eBay for £22.99 for TWO.

Here they are: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301967701370

Now I'm not too gullible, though I'm still mulling over your kind detailed explanation of H7 Xenon Upgrade bulbs which goes against all the manufacturers' bulb claims Craig.

So I'm not taken in by their claims of "Up to +50%" more light and +10m longer beam than "standard" HID Bulbs.

Especially when they claim +100% more light and +20m longer beam for their blue 6000K bulbs and then state +30% more bright and +20% longer beam in their description for both!

But time is short and a couple of things seem positive to me about their bulbs:

1) Like our OEM bulbs, they have the metal supports at the base of the glass to keep the bulb properly aligned, which some cheapie bulbs do not have,

2) these D2R Bulbs have the painted shield on the glass, which we need to prevent glare, whereas some others are clear, and

3) they seem to be proud of their name, where other sellers say their sources are "several manufacturers" so we don't know what we're going to get.

So I've just ordered a pair of these to "suck it and see", while I'm getting your thoughts.

Has any member here used these or other LUNEX HID Bulbs?

I don't mind being a guinea pig and if mine are good then other members will be safe to choose these too.

My HIDs are pathetic now so if I get the light that i need on the dark country roads and verges to counter the glare from oncoming dykeheads then I'll be quite happy.

Thanks again chaps.

 

[Craiglxviii]

This is the definition of colours that lighting manufacturers use: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space

Look down to page 7 here
http://www.osram-os.com/Graphics/XPic2/00146353_0.pdf/GW JDSRS1.EC - DURIS E 5 (EnglishDeutsch).pdf This is how Osram categorises colour temps in red to the CIE colour space.

 

[Mr Filipov]

This guy is quality. Buys a car woth xenons and then refuses to pay for branded lights, which are expensive because of the research that has gone into them to make them as good as they can be. Don't be surprised if the cheap bulbs are bot up to par afterwards.

 

[Craiglxviii]

This guy is quality. Buys a car woth xenons and then refuses to pay for branded lights, which are expensive because of the research that has gone into them to make them as good as they can be. Don't be surprised if the cheap bulbs are bot up to par afterwards.

It's a strange thing, spending money on small things. Friend of my dad's, stinking rich, refuses to wash his car more than once a year because "the paint is fine under the dirt". He's just SO tight. He went on a touring holiday with his caravan to Spain. Take the ferry to Santander? Nope, it was £15 cheaper to go Dover- Calais then drive. Took him an extra day but that's ok as he saved the £15...

But then he thinks nothing of spending thousands on golf bats and fishing sticks. Go figure!

By the way there may be very little performance wise between the big brands and these Lunex lamps. I've never heard of them but doesn't mean they're not good- or that they are good. Branded items are more expensive because they come from an organisation with vastly higher overheads to support as well, remember- and volume effect on parts cost is not linear. Just saying.

 

[JBell]

So chaps I need a bit more of your thoughts on the HIDs...

I went orf to buy the Philips Xenarc +50% bulbs.

They are 4800K.

But my fingers just wouldn't let me click "Pay" at £64 each.

I found Osram for less, £34-£49 each on eBay, £29.99 on AutoBulbs Direct.

Read post #20

 

[LostKiwi]

I'm surprised the HiD are so bad as my 210 on H7s is fine (admittedly with Nightbreaker Lasers/Philips Rally Vision bulbs).

 

[Craiglxviii]

I'm surprised the HiD are so bad as my 210 on H7s is fine (admittedly with Nightbreaker Lasers/Philips Rally Vision bulbs).

Yes... I suspect something else is going on here.

 

[JimM]

This guy is quality. Buys a car woth xenons and then refuses to pay for branded lights, which are expensive because of the research that has gone into them to make them as good as they can be. Don't be surprised if the cheap bulbs are bot up to par afterwards.

Monsieur Filipov, I understand your thinking.

But I resent paying over the top for a brand name which is possibly made by the same factory.

A classic example is Bosch power tools, made in China, poor quality, but sold at very high prices here with short life. A previously world class name of quality, destroyed by unthinking accountants, just like Lucas.

I've done the guinea pig before for many things for cars, oils, upgrade bulbs, tyres, aftermarket components... my last one only last month, with ZF 6HP26 gearbox fluid for Jaguars, which it transpires is Shell M1375.4 fluid which is blended and supplied by an official Shell distributor here in the UK for £98 for 20 litres against £340 to £500 for 20 litres of ZF Lifeguard Fluid 6.

20 litres because a full exchange of all the fluid, 10 litres, needs 14 litres.

Someone had to try it, put their money where their mouth was.

So I bit the bullet and did. Since then several forum members saved up to £400 for their gearbox fluid full flush, and still have 6 litres for next time.

I didn't buy the cheapest D2R bulbs at £8 per pair for the reasons I gave above, I'm not that optimistic.

Now if these LUNEX bulbs are ineffective and the light output is the same as my original HID bulbs, then I've perhaps wasted £23. If I had bought the Philips, I lose £128. It could well be a voltage problem or other (unlikely since the ballasts are individual).

So then my next action might be to try Osram bulbs as JBell suggested in post #20 (thanks JBell, I did see it first time).

So then I will spend the £78 and will have wasted the £23 if it's poor new LUNEX bulbs, but it will still be less than the Philips at £128.

But if I report a terrific recovery, some members and surely you too would be able to benefit by considering these bulbs at £23 a pair next time, on my confirmation?

And I would have also confirmed that indeed HID bulbs do fade and dim with age?

Alternatives. That's what my trials are all about, for the benefit of other members as well as for myself.

Otherwise I would have done it in silence. Right?

If I also tell you that I need to sell my car soon and that this expense would devalue the car by another £100, or by £200+ if I fit OEM bulbs? What would you offer for my car, the top price of £2500 to £2700?

I hope you understand my motive better now