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Dyson has scrapped its electric car project

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by Tony Dyson, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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    my father in law tried that, in 70,s turbine in river water. board would not allow,unless he carried cost of adding it to nat grid , killed scheme
     
  2. d215yq

    d215yq Senior Member

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    As per LK that's quite expensive and less reliable than solar here. Another option is to have water heated directly via the sun (not by PV but by a special tank that you put in the roof) and then you can run a 12V or 24V circuit with incredibly cheap and small PV panels you can put on the floor and a couple of 100€ batteries - enough for LED lighting, phones/laptops and a small fridge and you can even charge up the occasion you need to with a car.

    That used to be the favoured option for a cabin hideaway but now PV cells have come down so much that when you've bought all the low voltage fridge and found a way to adapt your chargers, and bought the water tank (which is not cheap), it's actually about the same as going for a full 230V PV set-up and using normal appliances without any hassle.

    Its taking me a while to find the right house and land in the right situation but I really hope I manage to do so before people cotton on that without mauin grid electricity is not a problem - there's a big premium for those with power or that could be attached to it and I'm sure people realise how easy/cheap it is to not need it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  3. NBurns

    NBurns Senior Member

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    Not to need what?



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  4. NBurns

    NBurns Senior Member

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    Bar Stewards!!!!



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  5. NBurns

    NBurns Senior Member

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    Sorry didn't realise that.


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  6. d215yq

    d215yq Senior Member

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    Not to need mains electricity - houses are typically 15-20k € less without mains electricity. Which is a bargain considering for 2k of I could have a solar set-up for my moderate needs - or for 6-8k could have one that does everything and then no bills at all once it is set-up.

    I assume as people get used to the idea of the new technology that that price differential will come down sharply, so I hope to get in there before it does.
     
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  7. NBurns

    NBurns Senior Member

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    Okay, where are you buying the solar system from?



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  8. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    I used bimble solar (Google it).
     
  9. d215yq

    d215yq Senior Member

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    I haven't actually bought a house yet, still looking. That said, if you go to the B&Q equivalent here you could get something like this off the shelf with change for 5k€ which has everything you need to sort it out:

    http://www.leroymerlin.es/fp/821704...3000?idCatPadre=203251&pathFamilaFicha=341301

    The solar panels themselves make 3kW at 24V so that charges the 1000aH (12V battery) in 5 hours at full capacity, which is why it says realistically 10hours as the conditions maynot be perfect sun all day - but worst case it should be keeping the battery charged as long as more than the battaery capacity isnt used in a day (there's always more than 10 hours of daylight here)

    On the output side the battery only has 50aH as its at 230V, my calculations are:

    a 70L water heater needs 1,5kW for 1h a day @230V - so that's 6.5aH
    cooking one meal would use an oven at 1h @2,4KW - so that's 10aH
    fridge would average about 75W constant - so that's 8aH
    LED lights, laptop and phone would be 100W for 8 hours a day - so that's 4aH
    Televison would be 200W for 2 hours a day - 2aH

    Total is 30.5aH which means as long as the system is 61% efficient (and it claims 80% in 25yrs!!) then all would be good as long as you don't have to heat your house with electricity. Take the oven out of the equation, and a hot climate where teh water would be almost room temp anyway and I wil happily be able to make do with half the battery/solar panels for around 2-2.5k which would be more than enough for 11 months of the year (and I'd just be in my flat in the city anyway those days)...the 13A limit also means you couldn't cook/heat water at the same time

    Of course for a family of four, all time system you would need a bit more, but doubling budget to 10k and having an insulated property and you could probably heat the whole thing too...
     
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  10. Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    I went to the tip today and there is a reserved skip for Dyson cars.
     
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  11. OP
    Tony Dyson

    Tony Dyson Senior Member

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    If you're in the market for PV Panels you could do worse than follow advice I was given a few Years ago by a friend who works in PV Manufacturing and that was to buy proprietary branded products manufactured from Monocrystalline Silicon and avoid Polycrystalline Silicon panels, the latter products are less efficient and are prone to early and speedier deterioration, and beware of 'Thin Film' products of both Mono and Polycrystalline Silicon bonded to glass substrates and sold as Solar PV panels.
     
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  12. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Monocrystalline are definitely the most efficient though thin film from Solar Frontier are getting better all the time and have their place in areas subject to shade from trees as their performance degrades linearly according to how much of the panel is shaded (whereas monocrystalline the whole panel degrades if a corner is covered). Thin film can also perform better in low light.
     
  13. OP
    Tony Dyson

    Tony Dyson Senior Member

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    Design lifespan of Monocrystalline is on average 30 Years, Polycrystalline 25 Years and Thin Film dependant on type between 12-15 Years, it's Horses for Courses for Thin Film, it has it's applications but my warning earlier was of the practice of some unscrupulous manufacturers of bonding Thin Film PV sheets to glass substrates and describing them as Mono/Polycrystalline Solar PV Panels, which they are not. Shade will affect all Solar PV Panels including Thin Film as all the cells are wired in series, some manufacturers are starting to connect bypass diodes between the cells in order to isolate the shaded cells from affecting the output of cells upstream of the shade but as we all know, the best way is to build them in direct sunlight!
     
  14. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Not quite correct.
    Thin film CIS panels are a single homogeneous surface so unlike Mono or polycrystalline panels there are no individual cells wired in series on a single panel. This prevents shade on one cell acting as a sink for the others.
    On an MC or PC panel if 20% of the panel is in shade the whole panel output falls to near zero. On a CIS panel it falls to just under 80%.
    Yes putting panels in direct sunlight is always best but it's not always possible (canal or river boats for example).
    More on CIS panels here:
    https://www.pveurope.eu/News/Solar-...-are-advantageous-in-case-of-heat-and-shading
     
  15. OP
    Tony Dyson

    Tony Dyson Senior Member

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    Well you live and learn, CIS and CIGS are a new technology to me, the practice of bonding Thin Film to glass was/is done with Amorphous Silicon flexible sheets, and as I said earlier, with Thin Film it's Horses for Courses which now potentially includes in the shade and while 80% sounds impressive Thin Film output is still only around 50% that of Monocrystalline products anyway with half the design lifespan, so the consideration of a Solar solution for an installation permanently in the shade would I think be a difficult one to solve?
     
  16. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    You're comparing maximum efficiencies but that doesn't equate to the real world particularly well.
    MC panels work well in bright sunlight optimal conditions but performance drops off faster as conditions degrade.
    Hence the yield per kW of generation can be higher as the CIS panels produce power longer per day and are more effective in overcast conditions.
    For use in Spain NC panels will probably give best results (assuming no shade issues) but in Scotland I'd imagine CIS would probably be better in terms of power generated per annum.
     
  17. OP
    Tony Dyson

    Tony Dyson Senior Member

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    No, I'm comparing average performance figures and from no particular manufacturer, and don't forget that all types of Thin Film products will degrade faster than Crystalline products in their initially shorter lifespan. I don't think you should compare the two, they are as different as chalk and cheese, the real benefit of Thin Film products is their flexibility and ability to be incorporated unseen within other products such as roofing systems, building envelopes, virtually transparent versions built into glazing panels, automotive applications and the list goes on, but in a like for like comparison with Crystalline products, they're a bit like battery technology in the EV market, they're just not there yet in the Efficiency and Lifespan ratings, this article I found is worth a read!
    https://solarenergyforus.com/solar-panel-efficiency-lifespan/
     
  18. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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    read with interest ,observation. no perfect system pros/cons with all,, its just a case of what suits best .and as with all, there WILL be maintenance and failures. i prefer air/water heat source ,but that also has its pros and cons. but then if yr off grid (no power) it dont help ... there again i could go live in a yurt !! but i hate the cold and those Mongolians dont look too warm on any vidio i seen.....
     
  19. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    I think you missed my point.
    Crystalline panels will provide greater efficiency in optimal conditions. In non-optimal conditions a CIS panel can provide more actual power, i.e. it has a higher kWh per installed kW rated per annum. This is simply down to the more consistent output under variable real world conditions.
    I used a Solar Frontier CIS panel on our boat - rated 140W. It would produce useful power right up until dusk and was a large part of the reason it was chosen. Even when 50% shaded it was producing near 50% of its rated output. Crystalline panel performance falls off very rapidly and typically at 40% shading produces no useful power. We used the boat to make a 400km trip along the French canals (Beziers to Marmande) and from the single panel could generate enough power to run the engine and fridge (got to keep beers cold!) and keep batteries (3 x 110Ah lead acid) fully charged. This was in May in less than optimal conditions for the panel. The alternator had failed and this was our sole source of electric power.
    As noted CIS does have a shorter lifespan and lower peak efficiency but in some applications is a better option than Crystalline.

    Latest Crystalline multi junction technology can get as much as 45% efficiency but again suffers shading issues and are very expensive. It's horses for courses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  20. Frontstep

    Frontstep Senior Member

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    Which is the best type of solar water heater I was thinking of a large system to heat an indoor pool ?
     

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