ECUs - Failure rates/costs

[simon]

This is addressed mainly to Andy.

A thread in another forum for general cars was answered by a garage owner.His main area of technical rectification on modern cars is ECUs.These are reputed to be expensive(part exchange)
Do you find this on our modern MBs? Are they very pricey? Apparently a new Citroen boasts of 17 being fitted-are we similar on C & E class please?

regards
Ernest S.


(Edited by Ernest Sidesman at 1:22 pm on Oct. 27, 2001)

 

[Andy]

ECUs

Hi Ernest,

ECU on most vehicles are actually supposed to be the most reliable component in the system. I recently went on a Bosch training course and they echoed the sentiments.  Thats not to say they cannot go wrong. But with ref to MB all the test procedures have to be carried out before replacement. I don't just mean using the HHT (Hand held tester or star diagnosis) to try and isolate a problem. The above equipment will help put you in the area requiring futher attention.

ECU's are expensive. Thats why, when we suspect and ECU we will double check if not treble check our findings. Before ordering. Once ordered its YOURS!

I would also say that Citreon are also using this as a bit of a gimic. All of the systems on modern day cars are controlled by an ECU somewhere. The new S class's will be a technicians nightmare when they start to go wrong. Hope I been of some help.

Regards
Andy @www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           Grateful thanks, I was seeking re assurance mainly because, if my C250TD doesnt start showing signs of improvement & reasonable build quality, I am seriously thinking of going back to the 190E.
regards
Ernest.

 

[Neil Eglintine]

ECUs

Apparently, a lot of people wish they had stayed with the 190E. I was going to sell mine and buy a C280, but I've had a hard look at the old girl and decided to hang on. Fresh set of sills and a lick of paint and she still looks the part.
At nearly 200k, I suppose something big will go soon...

 

[Andy]

ECUs

Hi Ernest

What sort of problems have you been experiencing?

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           I am glad you asked that. I have no wish to portay myself as a moaner but I have  based my comparison with my old 190E 2.6 which I owned for 100,000 miles. During that time, consumables apart, it had 3 defects. A defective tappet on cold start, a noisy PolyVbelt & the usual oil leak from the offside front cylinder head gasket.The white paintwork was thick & erosion /chip proof. Trim inside, out & underneath was
excellent.General build quality excellent.
Current C 250td Elegance Estate has done 50,000 miles
Mechanically it has suffered several oil leaks (under warranty), two steering ball joint & and a front anti roll  bar link failure(& they are 27 pounds + VAT each).Female sections of the door locks are corroding,both plastic underbody fairings mounted fwd. of front wheel arches have cracked & been renewed.All four alloy wheels have corroded where balance weights are fitted.
As others have complained, paintwork is inadequate to withstand abrasion/stone chips such that owners are having to fit 3M based (Armorfend etc) plastic tape to offset damage to leading edge areas.
Trim has diminished in quality. I have several other
defects which in themselves are trivial but when when added to the total, promote a sense of unease & lack of confidence in the next 50,000 miles of ownership.
These cars cost significantly more money than the average mass produced car.Hitherto they have exuded
quality in engineering & build. I suspect materials & indeed standards are being lowered.
I have had my whinge & I feel better but ball joint failure at 50k is unacceptable.

Amendment.Having just studied the inspection requirements for a B Service & have noted that specific examination of the ball joints are called up, which suggests a known weakness.
Also I recall that the new C class have got
re designed steering geometry in that very area! Am I making sense Andy?
regards
Ernest


(Edited by Ernest Sidesman at 9:36 pm on Oct. 26, 2001)


(Edited by Ernest Sidesman at 1:28 pm on Oct. 27, 2001)

 

[Andy]

ECUs

Hi Ernest,

I hear every thing you say. We changed a set of ball joints at 20k. Can you believe it. 123,126,201,124, leaving out sl's old stroke eights (the vehicle before 123's), All joints were virtually guaranteed to do 100k. I had to go over a double check the technicians findings myself. But this is the first thing we started to notice on the 202's (c class), track rods, and the early ones were all in one piece. From one side to the other. You had to part with nearly £100 just for parts. I felt embarassed to have to tell customers of components which were failing which history told me should be servicable for another 50k at least. The paint work we have discussed in depth in this forum. But what can we do if the burecrats (if thats how you spell it?) are telling the manufacturers and repairers they have to use water based paints. We as the end user have very little say. Buy the time most of us can afford these vehicles we have absolutely no chance of sorting the paint. I know MB have had some corrosion problems. Those with 210 E class with corrosion around the boot release button will testify to what I am saying. As for the alloy wheels. They are another bone of contention. 140 s class's are really poor. I did hear that there was a warranty on some of these wheels. You need to pester your local dealer to ask MB for a good will warranty. If no joy then complain to customer services. You need to be a right PAIN IN THE REAR, to get any where.

You mentioned the new c class (203). The suspension set up seems to me to very similar to the 3 series BMW (SORRY I will wash out my mouth computor and every thing else), I think the change is not so much due to excessive wear of joints. But to improve the cars handling. The affore mentioned manufacturer has a reputation of making their cars handle well. MB need to pull something out of the bag. All the other manfufacturers are closing the gap. If you watch the F1, they are closin faster than any body anticipated.

May be they will read this forum and get their act together. Either way its too late for those reading this forum. We have to deal with the vehicles which we are driving and repairing know. Not the vehicles of the future. Although when you are trying to get the vehicles more fuel conservative every thing has to get lighter, quality is the first or should I say longevity is the first to go. Well a customer of mine with a new S class (220) 3.2CDi boasts of 38mpg on a run. That I think says it all? MB are there at the top of the tree. But need to sort out the lower branches!!

Regards
Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
Thank you for the information,very interesting.My two ball joints cost me 300 pounds! I am going to have a go at customer care.I feel sorry for the owner who had his go at 20K. I was still under warranty(RAC) but they would not accept liability, claiming it was a consumable.
regards
Ernest

 

[Andy]

ECUs

Hi Ernest,

£300 for front ball joints. Is that correct. I just calculated what we would of charged for the same job including vat even if seized to high heaven £147.

Sorry to hear of your poor experiences. I don't doubt that they wouldn't consider ball joints under warranty. They would be considered as consumables.

Regards
Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[Dave B]

ECUs

Ernest,

I was very interested/saddened to hear of your problems with your C250TD.  

My wife and I bought our first Mercedes back in August from a MB dealership in Manchester.   It's a C250TD estate, 1999 (S) Esprit (sorry, couldn't live with the wood trim of the Elagance/Classic - too pipe and slippers for me).  

Having read your tale of woe I'm rather concerned for our little pride and joy - which my wife idolises by the way !    

We bought the car with 20K on the clock and my wife is now racking up the miles.  It's smooth, remarkably fast for a diesel and is an absolute joy to drive, (or close to, given the hard seats).

Due to a multitude of cock-ups by the dealer we managed to negotiate a 3 year warranty and a free service.....yes, they were major cock-ups and I may post details of our nightmare dealership elsewhere in the this forum.   However, from your experience, and Andy's input, it seems I can expect to be making full use of the warranty (where applicable) over the coming years.  
It's a shame it doesn't cover paint chips as our bonnet has plenty.  I may ask Armourfend for a quote !!

Getting back to the original subject of this thread....ECU....do I take it  you didn't get your C250 chipped ??   My brother has just added a "tuningbox" to his Galaxy TDi with most pleasing results.  The added bonus is that this method of re-mapping is totally reversible - you simply unplug it !

Regards

Dave B.

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,

Good grief! half price, I expect if I had added the B service,I could have saved enough for a weeks holiday in Norfolk. Seriously though, they did a full tracking afterwards which costs money.
My wife & I had a long talk when we got the bill. I have now polished up my toolkit & we have looked you up on the map.
Digressing slightly, they set tyre pressures at 30psi,front & rear(They should be 30-33,as per the fuel flap) Do you advocate that?

regards
Ernest.

 

[Andy]

ECUs

Hi Ernest,

I have always gone by the fuel flap.  There is a lot of info on there. It comes from the horses mouth. We tend to use the first set of numbers. Obviously if you are travelling with passengers then adjust to the other settings.

Regards
Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

PS, I know you were joking about the holiday. But there was a program on tv a while ago. Where  they took there BMW to Plymouth from London. The amount they saved on the service paid for there stay at a four star hotel for a couple of nights. Its only when you sit down and think what else you could use the money you save to do, does the penny really sink in. Due to this forum we are being contacted by folk further away than we would normally would. Norwich,Bristol, Essex,Cardiff,Sommerset,customers have travelled from these areas and we have been able to work somthing out. I am amazed. I have quoted a customer in Aberystwyth, and have been successful. My manager Stuart has some friends down that way so we will be picking it up. What I am trying to say is its worth talking to me. There may be a way of working out a solution to the distance. I am not against picking vehicles up whereever the distance. Its a new concept in regards to the distance. But we pick up vehicles in a 40mile radius of Birmingham regulary. Long as I know in advance and can organise it. Then we will do our very best to accomadate. My moto has always been. If its got a star on it. Then we will collect it.  Obviously its easier if somebody drops it of. But we will always drop them at a train station, or B'ham city center or the Merry Hill center, for the day. We then keep in touch by mobile phone, and collect them when ready.

Hope to speak to you soon, and for any body else considering us. Give us a ring. The worst we can say is no. But we do like a challenge.

Regards
Andy Gayle

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Dave,
           Splendid to hear of someone with a similar model.I looked at several during my search & nearly bought an Esprit in Huddersfield(I liked the firmer suspension-mines too soggy) but the salesman wouldnt budge on "price to change". I didnt like the trim-I prefer
the retro look of rosewood & a touch of chrome.I dont like the wheels-too fussy.
I must admit that unlike my previous car it is not "my pride & joy", I bought this because we have two dogs now & wanted airbags & economy!!!Mid range acceleration 50-70 is excellent but could be bettered with an engine chip.I havent had it doneyet, I am not convinced that it would not shorten turbo life & am waiting to see what experienced is gained by other owners.Yes I have seen reports on the Tuningbox both on other forums(all favourable) & also in the current edition of Diesel Car which is an informative read.
Dont be too alarmed regarding my experiences with the 250, I trawl around the motoring media quite assiduously & have not seen anything to get unduly concerned about.
Armorfend is (by my standard) pricey but if you are into DIY, you can obtain it from USA very competitively & I can advise on location etc.
I await the story on a FREE 3 year warranty with interest plus a B service??

regards
Ernest

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           Apologies, I was just trawling back through these posts when I realised that I had missed your response(3weeks ago!) & your interesting PS.People travelling such long distances to you must be very re-assuring.I hear what you say & will contact you direct
when the time arrives.
Incidentally, regarding my failed balljoints, after doing some research around the net, I contacted Customer Care at Milton Keynes & put my case to them & they have agreed to contribute half the cost of the joints &  labour, which I consider to be quite fair.

regards
Ernest.

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           Apologies, I was just trawling back through these posts when I realised that I had missed your response(3weeks ago!) & your interesting PS.People travelling such long distances to you must be very re-assuring.I hear what you say & will contact you direct
when the time arrives.
Incidentally, regarding my failed balljoints, after doing some research around the net, I contacted Customer Care at Milton Keynes & put my case to them & they have agreed to contribute half the cost of the joints &  labour, which I consider to be quite fair.

regards
Ernest.

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           Apologies, I was just trawling back through these posts when I realised that I had missed your response(3weeks ago!) & your interesting PS.People travelling such long distances to you must be very re-assuring.I hear what you say & will contact you direct
when the time arrives.
Incidentally, regarding my failed balljoints, after doing some research around the net, I contacted Customer Care at Milton Keynes & put my case to them & they have agreed to contribute half the cost of the joints &  labour, which I consider to be quite fair.

regards
Ernest.

PS Curse these CGI timeouts,is anyone else suffering?

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Andy,
           Apologies, I was just trawling back through these posts when I realised that I had missed your response(3weeks ago!) & your interesting PS.People travelling such long distances to you must be very re-assuring.I hear what you say & will contact you direct
when the time arrives.
Incidentally, regarding my failed balljoints, after doing some research around the net, I contacted Customer Care at Milton Keynes & put my case to them & they have agreed to contribute half the cost of the joints &  labour, which I consider to be quite fair.

regards
Ernest.

PS Curse these CGI timeouts,is anyone else suffering?

 

[franj]

ECUs

Hi Earnest,

I was not so lucky with my 190E 2.6.  It was a '89 with only 25000km when I bought it.  I sold it two years ago with 45000km after getting cheesed off with one repair after another.  What I couldn't accept was that if a lowly Corolla (or any car for that matter) was more reliable.  I expect to pay a premium for a premium car, but that constant repair bills were getting ridiculous.

The following items were replaced or faults:

- engine mounts
- ABS sensors
- flex discs
- tie rods
- a million gaskets due to oil leaks
- constant overheating problems
- front shocks
- clunky transmission
- hard starting problems

I think we have to accept that luck plays a big part in car ownership.....just that with Mercs, you need more luck.  Your old 190E was a better car because it was more reliable, but not better otherwise.  Likewise my Camry is 100 times better than my 190E, but it has no character.  Which is more important to you?

 

[simon]

ECUs

Hi Franz,
You have my sympathies regarding the uncharacteristic
failures on your 190 2.6 in only 20k miules.I think, it is fair to say that this unrepresentative of these cars in the UK but I have no knowledge what is par in Australia.

My i90 was certainly more reliable than my current C class, it was lowered to AMG spec & was a joy to drive.
The C is still fairly solid & quite well built but with a worrying amount of inferior materials.It certainly does not have the pleasing character of the 190 but of course being an estate(wagon) it is designed for a different purpose,
You ask what it more important to me, character or reliability. Definately reliability, with engineering & build quality next & character almost equal
We pay premium sums for these cars in the UK & we expect premium return for our money.
Sadly I do not feel this condition is now being met.
regards
Ernest

 

[Tina]

ECUs

Greeting Chaps
                       Stupid question of the next 10 minites!!
what is an ECU? will my 200TE have one (I  hope not They sound like a pain in the bum)
thanks Tina