Final leg of the on going judder issue.

[Janchee]

Hi Jimbo ... we will get to the end result soon!!

I’d say to make sure you take some run out measurements and at least 8 disc thickness measurements when you next have the wheels off. This will give you a good numerical backup for investigation going forward.

Usual Sunday job of checking car - found that all my cooling holes are blocked up as well. For mine - I’m still convinced the problem appeared after using active cruise control. It uses the brakes so much more than I would. Loads of forums online describing the same problem. Discs aren’t warped but loads of brake pad material baked into the disc. There’s also a bulletin raised for the SE version:

LI42.10-P-066910 AUG17 – 213 without AMG juddering/shuddering of the brakes at the front axle can be felt when braking, check the wheel assembly components – disc brake & brake pad condition, wheel imbalance, suspension & steering parts, and wheel hub contact surface. If none of the components are visibly or measurably damaged replace brake pads.

Just checked my tyre pressures as well ... 48psi on the rear!! Who the ****** hell set them at that is beyond me. I was wondering why the car was coasting so easy Now at Manf setting of 32psi all around and it’s a lot better haha. Going to ask the last service centre for a copy of the tyre pressures if they checked them at all.

 

[Janchee]

Car has been dropped off at Mercedes this morning. This is my first time dealing with my local dealership service center and I must say that I'm shocked.

Once I sat down with the service employee, I discussed the issue of brake judder and how it only came on after using the adaptive cruise control. I already did some research and put together a document of forums / service bulletins and other issues with the car.

The service employee was extremely blunt and rude - completely ignored everything. I said there has been many cases of where the W213 has had brake judder under warranty and these forums show that. The service employee said I'll be surprised if your car has not had any new discs or pads with 35k miles on the clock?! I was like what!!! They should go for many more than that!

Having the service bulletin numbers and descriptions seemed to be the final straw for the service advisor and promptly replied "We don't take into consideration online forums or other online research you've completed. We just use the Mercedes system which provides us the information we need"

I am only shocked because this is so so so far from the service I received at BMW for 5 + years. I had similar issues and walked in with documented research and they thanked me so much. It helped my case with BMW and they took the online forums very serious (hence, why forums exist!)

Also got a 69 plate C200 and it's not that good. Miles away from what I expect from a brand new Mercedes. New 3-series is way ahead

 

[davemercedes]

Best of luck progressing this, Jimbo. I felt every syllable of your rant - I think we've all been there at some time! I think the offer you have from KennyN is super and shows how the good nature of people on this forum. Fingers crossed that the end is in sight!

 

[Jimbo1959]

Best of luck progressing this, Jimbo. I felt every syllable of your rant - I think we've all been there at some time! I think the offer you have from KennyN is super and shows how the good nature of people on this forum. Fingers crossed that the end is in sight!

KennyN is an absolute gentleman, he had my discs turned around, all checked and trued up within two days of receipt of them, he even provided me with a video showing the before condition where the worst front disc was found to be 5 thou out of true, and the after measurement showing them to be true once again. Sorry I can't get the video to upload, my ignorance I guess, either that or the file is too big, most likely.

He discovered that the rears were as near as damn it perfect and only needed a clean up to get the rust off of them from sitting in my all to damp garage. At least them being true shows that the issue is all at the front.

I on the other hand had to wait until Saturday, 22/2/20 to pick them up due to work commitments.

The car will be going on the rolling road this Saturday, 29/2/20 in an attempt to narrow down even further what and exactly where on the front hub assembly, the issue which has given me so much grief is coming from.

Once we have determined what remedial action is required, it will be undertaken, and the front discs that Kenny checked out and corrected will be refitted. They will only be getting fitted at this time to prevent damage by the lack of repairs to whatever is causing the problem at the moment.

When the work is completed, Kenny wants to check out the discs that have been on the car for the last five months and, a smidgeon under two thousand miles on the lathe, to confirm how badly warped they are, and true them up again too I hope.

At least I'll have a spare set if they're ever needed. (I bluddy hope not!)

 

[davemercedes]

...All X’d for a happy ending!

 

[D5meister]

Sometimes the slide pins can be tight. The caliper does not float to track the disk, heat builds on one side of the disk and introduces a minor warp.

 

[Jimbo1959]

Sometimes the slide pins can be tight. The caliper does not float to track the disk, heat builds on one side of the disk and introduces a minor warp.

Thanks for that info , I will check them out.

 

[Jimbo1959]

I took the car in for the rolling road test this morning and it has confirmed that the back brakes are perfectly balanced, doing everything that they should as they should and, more importantly to me, warp free.

The front however was a different story, I had "made progress" on my trip to the garage to try to make sure that everything was nice and hot for the test.

When on the roller it was found that there is an imbalance on braking performance between the n/side and o/side, with the o/side being the worst. The n/side is damaged too, just not as badly as the o/side.

The calipers are moving back and forwards on the slides as they should alright (as I had hoped, due to the fitment of new calipers last October), so they are not sticking and causing over heating issues leading to warping of the discs. The run out guages show a small reading on the n/side disc less than 1 thou, but the o/side was reading run out between 4-to-5 thou, which funnily enough was what the worst disc that KennyN checked out for me was out by.

So, after discussion of what work has been done, results of said work, further development of the problem and all the checks that have been carried out and the recent work and lack of positive results, it has been diagnosed that it is the hubs which are the culprit, and should be replaced.

Jan van der Lubbe mentioned a similar suggestion made by his Tech on another diagnosis, yep, on post #24.

"Anyway, mechanic looked it over and said everything seemed OK i.e alloys and discs. He said that he had a previous situation where the Wheel bearing or actual HUB were damaged as a result of the pothole. He thinks this is a similar situation based on his observations. Car is going in for some more stringent tests i.e. run-out on disc etc.

Have you tried the wheel bearings or hubs? It doesn't take a lot for the balls in the bearing to scar the roller edges (due to the large amount of force from a pothole).

I've also read a bit more online where people similar to yourself have replaced discs/pads many times ... to conclude in the end that every time they put a new disc on ... they're putting it on a warped hub hence after 500 miles ... the problem would return.

I have fitted new bearings in both hubs, as previously discussed but, had no success with the effort so, Jan's information dovetails nicely with my Tech's diagnosis and consequent confirmation of his suspicion that this could also be my issue. It's further confirmed imho, by me having to get my o/side front alloy re-jigged, straightened and balanced after discovering how badly out it was during a previous check of the alignment and balance when trying to work out what was producing the judder.

I have also noticed since doing the bearings and driving some, one hundred miles or so, that the feel through the steering has gotten worse, which I believe also adds weight to the diagnosis of the hub. Anyway, I've ordered complete hub assemblies and they'll be here on Tuesday, I decided on Febi-Bilstein as the they are a reputable approved O.E. manufacturer. I've also decided to fit complete hubs with bearings and seals prefitted to prevent any possibility of damage being inflicted during removal, swop over to the new hub of the previously fitted new parts, expensive I know but, I'd rather be safe than sorry, basically just trying to minimise any possible problem areas.

I will then do the job, the fitting of the new hubs, the two discs that KennyN trued up for me, the new pins which I found that had not previously been fitted and, a just to be on the safe side, a complete strip down, clean and re-greasing of the caliper carriers, slides and pad backing to ensure everything is as optimal as is possible. I intend do this all myself, my reasoning being, at least then I will know that it has been done to my satisfaction. I couldn't be cheeky enough to say 'properly', although I was tempted.

Further information and results to follow.

 

[KennyN]

Hi ,Jim.

To clarify - do you think the hubs are heating up and causing the O/S front disc to warp or do you think the hubs disc mounting flange is running off causing the disc runout ?

The 0.005" you are measuring on the disc could be a bit of debris behind its mounting flange,as 0.001" of debris at the centre can easily give you the larger runout on the outer edge of the disc.

I had a fair amount of front bearing play, prior to adjustment, on my CLS and never experienced any wobble through the car when braking.

I understand that you have replaced most of the associated components but , IMHO, the inner hub would either be warped causing the vibration no matter what you replaced and it wouldn`t go after a bit of work and return later , the hub would either be warped or not.

The only part of the hub that could cause vibration problems would be the inner rotating part which , as above, is either warped or not.

K

 

[Jimbo1959]

Hi ,Jim.

To clarify - do you think the hubs are heating up and causing the O/S front disc to warp or do you think the hubs disc mounting flange is running off causing the disc runout ?

The 0.005" you are measuring on the disc could be a bit of debris behind its mounting flange,as 0.001" of debris at the centre can easily give you the larger runout on the outer edge of the disc.

I had a fair amount of front bearing play, prior to adjustment, on my CLS and never experienced any wobble through the car when braking.

I understand that you have replaced most of the associated components but , IMHO, the inner hub would either be warped causing the vibration no matter what you replaced and it wouldn`t go after a bit of work and return later , the hub would either be warped or not.

The only part of the hub that could cause vibration problems would be the inner rotating part which , as above, is either warped or not.

K

To be honest Kenny I'm still thinking about this, Ok still struggling to get my head around it, I'm the first to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the box.

When I changed the bearings I was positive that the rotor face and back of the disc mating faces were as clean and debris free as it was possible to get them. I even put a very light smear of grease between them to facilitate sliding the parts together to match the bolt holes and locating bolt as well as trying to help prevent corrosion. If there had been any grit evident I think/hope I would have been able to see/hear/feel it.

Prior to changing the bearings there was a fair amount of play, I could move the outer edge of the wheel approx 4-5mm, after doing the job the movement was almost nil, basically just enough for heat expansion. I checked out several how to's on Youtube to make sure I did the job properly and I think I did. The info shared by most posters was tighten the hub nut up until you start to feel resistance when turning the hub, then, back it off until it runs free, secure locking bolt, job done.

"IMHO, the inner hub would either be warped causing the vibration no matter what you replaced and it wouldn`t go after a bit of work and return later , the hub would either be warped or not."

I agree with this statement and I think that this is what has been happening as no matter what I have replaced the vibration has been there. The issue of whether it is there all the time or not I am finding difficult to ascertain because it has only, until recently, been more pronounced at higher speeds, in fact, if I drive the car gently even now, it will feel relatively smooth. If you didn't know the car or hadn't experienced how smooth it once was you might miss it.
It's only when it has heated up that it becomes more obvious.

I have noticed, as I said in post #88 that the feel through the steering has become worse. I don't know if this has been due to the issue progressing and developing and /or the combination of the bearings being done and highlighting the fault, or, if I've just f-cked it up somehow.
I can only think that the heat level difference between cold and hot has been masking the problem, preventing a correct diagnosis.

My head is totally wasted by it all as, I can't work out what the problem is or, what to do for the best. I suspect it needs someone with more brains than I sir. I am beginning to become fixated on a gallon of petrol and a match in my frustration.

I was all set to follow the hub replacement recommendation I had even ordered the parts and now .....

 

[Jimbo1959]

Oh well, it's only another £300, new rotors it is then. If that doesn't cure it, the only part left to do will be the steering knuckles.

I never wanted to get it remapped anyway.

 

[D5meister]

A work colleague had a disk that had had a hot spot. This area was either more ir less grippy than the rest of the disk and modulated the brake effort resting in a judder but rare theae days due to superiot materials control. He had them skimmed but issue remained. His cure was disk swap.

 

[bembo449]

Oh well, it's only another £300, new rotors it is then. If that doesn't cure it, the only part left to do will be the steering knuckles.

I never wanted to get it remapped anyway.

surely steering component fault would show up all the time Jim , lets be honest , you steer a car more than you brake so im pretty sure that wont cure the issue and now ive experienced Jan VDBs fault myself it is most definitely brake related , the car drives beaut until the brakes are applied and I could make it feel even worse by riding the brake and throttle at the same time , wobbled like hell when I did that , im keeping an open mind until I get my greasy paws on it though as a customers Volvo had a similar issue the was sorted with new complete bottom arms being fitted

 

[Jimbo1959]

surely steering component fault would show up all the time Jim , lets be honest , you steer a car more than you brake so im pretty sure that wont cure the issue and now ive experienced Jan VDBs fault myself it is most definitely brake related , the car drives beaut until the brakes are applied and I could make it feel even worse by riding the brake and throttle at the same time , wobbled like hell when I did that , im keeping an open mind until I get my greasy paws on it though as a customers Volvo had a similar issue the was sorted with new complete bottom arms being fitted

I would have thought so too Simon, it has gotten worse and more noticable since I fitted the new wheel bearings which makes me think that the new bearings are highlighting the problem and the problem is the rotors, basically before, they needed to heat up for it to become pronounced/noticable, it has now developed into a constant issue.

All very puzzling and, a complete pita to diagnose. Fingers crossed that this time I have found the cure.

 

[Jimbo1959]

Well there has been a massive improvement, however, this is all at UK motorway speeds up to maybe 85 mph, it's smoother and it's feeling miles better than it was.

On the other hand when we transfer to Autobahn speeds there is still a roughness @+100 mph particularly when braking. Oh FFS!

I have had the new rotors fitted on both sides and the discs that KennyN trued up on the lathe fitted too so, we have made a step in the right direction. I just need to find out what will give me that final 5% for a totally smooth judder free result.

 

[Janchee]

Well there has been a massive improvement, however, this is all at UK motorway speeds up to maybe 85 mph, it's smoother and it's feeling miles better than it was.

On the other hand when we transfer to Autobahn speeds there is still a roughness @+100 mph particularly when braking. Oh FFS!

I have had the new rotors fitted on both sides and the discs that KennyN trued up on the lathe fitted too so, we have made a step in the right direction. I just need to find out what will give me that final 5% for a totally smooth judder free result.

Hey Jimbo - Great news that the judder has significantly improved! Fingers crossed, it will stay that way!

I can’t remember, but did you ever try putting some new tyres on? And are they Run Flats? If you’ve got a friend with similar wheels sizes, it could be a good idea to swap wheels and see what the ride is like.

Also, have you tried and different parts supplier?

Bembo449 helped me fit some new discs and pads to the front yesterday and the judder seems to have disappeared. On remove the OSF disc... there was a clear bearing roar noise when we spun it. Car has been to 3 garages including Mercedes who all said they checked bearings and everything is fine

Taking the car to Manchester today so will see how we get on!!

 

[Jimbo1959]

Hey Jimbo - Great news that the judder has significantly improved! Fingers crossed, it will stay that way!

I can’t remember, but did you ever try putting some new tyres on? And are they Run Flats? If you’ve got a friend with similar wheels sizes, it could be a good idea to swap wheels and see what the ride is like.

Also, have you tried and different parts supplier?

Bembo449 helped me fit some new discs and pads to the front yesterday and the judder seems to have disappeared. On remove the OSF disc... there was a clear bearing roar noise when we spun it. Car has been to 3 garages including Mercedes who all said they checked bearings and everything is fine

Taking the car to Manchester today so will see how we get on!!

Up until I had done the three figure test I was like a dog with two tails, absolutely delighted, I thought it was cured, now I'm back to where I started two years ago when I bought it.

In answer to your question about the wheel and tyres Jan, when I bought the car, it had Continental tyres on the front and had the issue, when I replaced them with Uniroyal Sharks, it still had the issue, when I put on my winter wheels with different tyres again, it still had the issue. I wouldn't have run flats on the car tbh, they in themselves cause too many problems.

The only other time there has been a significant improvement was after replacing the front discs, pads, and all the slides, bushes, rubbers and pins in the calipers and greasing them up of course. Hence the reason for doing almost the same thing this time. The car has covered approx, 6K in the interim so, it was only stripped cleaned and greased on this occasion.

Regarding the parts supplier, I work for one of Scotlands largest independent Motor Factors, consequently getting parts is not an issue as such, plus, obtaining different, better quality parts is not to much of a problem either. At each fitting of new parts I've used the best quality parts that we hold in stock.

After speaking to the chap who did all the work for me, he suggested fitting Brembo discs and pads as an upgrade as he didn't think very highly of what I did use or of O.E. Mercedes stuff either come to that. His opinion was that, "at three figure speeds, all of that gear was more likely to warp than anything else. Go Brembo, good quality and made for those speeds".

At the moment I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, do I throw more money at the pit or just trade it and the problem away? I know where I can get a 53K Type R Honda, which I've always loved, they have a great reputation for reliability, it's the same year as my Coupé and it's the right colour, it will cost me £200 to change which is less than the Brembo upgrade. I'd like to keep the Merc 'cos I love the snob value. Decisions, decisions....

 

[Wighty]

Up until I had done the three figure test I was like a dog with two tails, absolutely delighted, I thought it was cured, now I'm back to where I started two years ago when I bought it.

In answer to your question about the wheel and tyres Jan, when I bought the car, it had Continental tyres on the front and had the issue, when I replaced them with Uniroyal Sharks, it still had the issue, when I put on my winter wheels with different tyres again, it still had the issue. I wouldn't have run flats on the car tbh, they in themselves cause too many problems.

The only other time there has been a significant improvement was after replacing the front discs, pads, and all the slides, bushes, rubbers and pins in the calipers and greasing them up of course. Hence the reason for doing almost the same thing this time. The car has covered approx, 6K in the interim so, it was only stripped cleaned and greased on this occasion.

Regarding the parts supplier, I work for one of Scotlands largest independent Motor Factors, consequently getting parts is not an issue as such, plus, obtaining different, better quality parts is not to much of a problem either. At each fitting of new parts I've used the best quality parts that we hold in stock.

After speaking to the chap who did all the work for me, he suggested fitting Brembo discs and pads as an upgrade as he didn't think very highly of what I did use or of O.E. Mercedes stuff either come to that. His opinion was that, "at three figure speeds, all of that gear was more likely to warp than anything else. Go Brembo, good quality and made for those speeds".

At the moment I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, do I throw more money at the pit or just trade it and the problem away? I know where I can get a 53K Type R Honda, which I've always loved, they have a great reputation for reliability, it's the same year as my Coupé and it's the right colour, it will cost me £200 to change which is less than the Brembo upgrade. I'd like to keep the Merc 'cos I love the snob value. Decisions, decisions....

It’s a tough decision Jim , you have exhausted all options to sort now .

 

[McDonald]

I advise you to trade it. You've lost confidence in the car. I'm sad that your pride and joy has let you down, but sometimes things just work out that way. These toys have to bring us pleasure commensurate with the expense. When they don't, we find our pleasures elsewhere.

 

[bembo449]

Cant say i blame you for trading it in Jim , defo better option than a field , match and a gallon of unleaded!
I dont agree with your mechanic about brembos however, he clearly has driven or worked on anything with 400bhp plus , brembo are too soft and over heat like billyo , and MB fit them as OE to their cars with bigger brakes like Jans e220 est i worked on the other day , not sure id go to a Honda from a merc ???