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Ford Bridgend plant to close in 2020

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by bob 6600, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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    getting you JL as said think that its one of the best compromises, good looking/economic/ powerful car. and not likely to adversely effect 1st owner. except maybe s/h value at batt replacement time. i dont believe pure electric cars will fare very well tho. and i really doubt replacement batts will be as good lifespan wise as original.
     
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  2. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't they? As time goes on the understanding of batteries increases and new technology allows increasingly greater energy densities along with improved lifespan.
     
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  3. Rob76

    Rob76 Senior Member

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    Batteries are not the long term way forward; they are hugely damaging to the environment through mining/manufacturing and then there are the life expectancy and recycling issues to deal with.
    Hydrogen has been making inroads for a few years, Intelligent Energy have hydrogen power plants in a few vehicles on the road - but the production of Hydrogen requires much electricity...... (Coal / Gas / Nuclear power ) so its sustainability is questionable currently.......
     
  4. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

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    I agree, battery technology is on the up at the moment and will only get better. I’m with you in thinking they will get more efficient, evidenced by the LCI version of the i8 (and i3) which have range extension batteries with little or no compromise in terms of weight and size
     
  5. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

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    As an organisation we are putting much of our future efforts towards LNG and coming further downstream towards CNG - you just have to visit Japan to see how far they have gone with this- commercials and public transport is almost all CNG powered.....
     
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  6. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    I disagree.
    Batteries in one form or another are the best way forward at least for now.
    Hydrogen has major issues with manufacture, transportation, storage and range. The Mazda RX8 HRE bifuel hydrogen car has a hydrogen fuel capacity of 110 litres giving a range of 100km that's just 5 mpg!
    Furthermore on hydrogen it only produced 1/2 the power compared to petrol.

    The mining issues of Lithium may also become less contentious with new battery technologies that are being developed or with improvements in supercapacitor technologies.

    The biggest challenges with batteries are charge cycle lifetimes, range and recharge times.
     
  7. Rob76

    Rob76 Senior Member

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    Batteries may be best for now - but isn't that the issue? Short term tax relief & emissions reductions; but at what cost?
    Even newer battery tech isn't what id call sustainable in the long term....

    I was advocating the use of Hydrogen to generate electricity - per the aforementioned Intelligent Energy fuel cells - not to directly fuel the combustion; there needs to be a more radical shift to move away from internal combustion for the long term.
     
  8. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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    my experience to date . once worked thru original batteries ,replacements rarely if ever,last as long even when thru original manufactures supply. i would be delighted if they did and or for an adequate explanation as t why, other than the one i strongly suspect, but there it is. nearest i see to date ryobi power tools. i never had a car batt last as long as the original ,even when buying the bosch version.
     
  9. Yugguy

    Yugguy Senior Member

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    I'm picking up my new car on Tuesday with one of those dragon engines in it. Great engine, very efficient etc. Ford are making a big push to roll out various flavours of hybrid next year. Given how new the dragon engine is you'd think they'd want to use it as the basis of a hybrid powertrain.
     
  10. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Fuel cells are only 60% efficient. ICE is (for arguments sake) 30% efficient. On that basis you can expect a fuel cell to give the equivalent of 10mpg on the example above. Still not viable.
     
  11. keefysher

    keefysher Senior Member

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    As I posted in the BMW/JLR e-car thread, Bromine Flow Batteries are coming onstream for electrickery storage which is part of the bigger picture.

    As with most of these discussions on transport that includes IC / EV / Trains /ships / Electrickery the wider picture is key, an energy system approach is required considering the interdependencies on generation not just for the end vehicle, but the extraction (after all everything we need comes out of the earth in the first instance. Even solar and wind needs something out of the ground to capture the energy before conversion to electrickery for wotever use), conversion and end of life recovery.

    In respect of mining, I often wonder of the few people that actually see mining assets, they are predominantly remote and in developed countries have for nearly half a century had to meet extremely strict environmental standards and return post extraction. Next time you visit Jamaica on holiday and get out of the all inclusive resort go look see, ditto en route to Albany for whale watching, or go look see Davac if you get to Canada. Yes there are bad boys as seen with recent dam collapses, those assets didn't magically appear overnight. Of course to go look see burns fuel as they are so far remote. Ditto oil extraction, there are live spills in lots of places that are not in the first world, but hey, life is cheap.

    Ive said many times in respect of after use waste of fuel out of the ground, return it whence it came and include that cost in the whole end to end cycle. Hence CCS, great big chasms in the earth where oil & gas came from, assets bring it one way, send it back, Coal extraction has left space in geologically stable strata, send waste back, let it decompose in control and use the gas. To a degree this is being done if you drive the M1 past what was Markham Main and see the funny bright multi coloured lights on the 'hillside'.

    On the subject of coal, for over a century only the lumpy stuff was used, the 'fines' were piled in slag heaps. There is currently potential to use those fines, in simple terms in suspension in heavy fuel oil to turn that dirty fuel used in marine and power generation as 'fines' are more energy dense and clean up the fuel il. Market value is predicted to be $2trillion per annum. https://www.arq.com

    Whilst coal is seen as dirty, it can be scrubbed after burning. That needs investment.

    Tidal stream is extremely efficient, but is an extinctor risk for traditional fossil fuel. Recent acquisitions by Shell and comments from BP are illustrative that big fossil fuel dinosaurs are seeing the light.

    Masdar City is a good example of the realisation fossil fuels are time limited.

    A paradigm mindset shift is required from short term thinking. Nothing is impossible.

    All too often the focus is narrow, look up and out
     
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  12. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    So I used to work for the bloke currently leading the most advanced engineering effort in developing fuel cells for mainstream usage. Right now they cannot see, and barring some hitherto unforeseen breakthrough cannot see a way to get to, a position where the underlying cost vs performance ($/mile of range) can begin to challenge HV batteries at their current level of technological development.

    Fuel cells are just fundamentally too expensive to build.
     
  13. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    Couldn’t agree more. Throw in some sensible legislation over FGDS while you’re at it!
     
  14. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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    how is hyundai managing it then i understand that is on sale now, so its no concept car. its the infrastructure thats holding it back. no ? from what i see its 350 mile range and 2 tonne. admittedly batteries involved so still not green to produce but if everyone plugs in their duracells at night ,what happens to the grid ?

    https://www.wired.com/story/hyundai-nexo-review-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric/

    i dont see it as run of the mill , but i am fairly confident this is very near to where we will end up .
     
  15. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    It’s $58k for a bog spec car. That’s exactly what I mean. An equivalent EV would be half of that, and a third of that with battery leasing.

    Where the industry is heading is PHEV or REEV, range extended electric vehicles with a gasoline engine acting as a genset feeding an intermediate sized battery, with all traction provided by electric motors.
     
  16. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    If everyone in the world swapped their car for an EV, and drove 12k per year equivalent, the world would need to add the equivalent electrical generation capacity of the USA on its own just to stand still.
     
  17. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    I don't think they would Craig. Most electric cars would recharge overnight when demand falls dramatically at present. What it would do is make energy demands more constant which is great news for power stations - especially nuclear.
     
  18. ajlsl600

    ajlsl600 Senior Member

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  19. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

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    Forget demand timing and focus on annual power requirements. Then remember that “overnight” varies around the world... and there isn’t enough installed capacity to cope, cumulatively by almost exactly the total US annual amount.
     
  20. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

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    Demand timing is very relevant and shouldn't be dismissed.
    Nuclear power stations take time to and start up and shutdown and are only suitable as baseline power sources. Gas and bio stations are more able to respond to increases and dips in demand. Therefore if the baseline rises nuclear can provide more of the energy required.
    This is also one of the fundamental flaws with solar and wind power generation. They aren't guaranteed and in the case of solar provide nothing overnight.
    Currently the pumped hydro in Wales is used to help balance out supply and demand but it's a very inefficient method.
    If the whole UK went electric cars the bulk of them would recharge overnight. As demand currently drops away overnight all that would happen is the nuclear plants could be ramped up a bit (the baseline has increased as a result of the overnight trough disappearing. This then liberates additional on demand to help fill any shortfall.
    I'm not saying we wouldn't need another power station but it's not as bad as suggested.

    Globally this applies to all the developed nations.
     

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