German build quality myth

[coventryslk]

I've driven and had the use of many German cars - Audi/VW, BMW and Mercs.

I am highly suprised that motoring journalists keep banging on about German build quality. It is i guess fashionable to say it even though their cars are crap.

Audi interiors - yes they look nice but they dont last long and as for the engines they are all old units modified.
2.0 FSI (Mk3 golf GTI engine without 'FSI')
1.4 TFSI (Lupo but without the turbo + sup)
1.6 FSI (skoda Octavia and other old VWs and the linked gearbox has a habit of failing)

Only me i think has noticed or is it only me who knows anything about cars? Feck Clarkson and that bearded tw@t on Fifth gear, who is the kind of tw@t that uses stupid cliches and sayings such as 'school boy error' etc.

BMW's diesel 2.0 units (powertrain a.k.a Rover developed) MINIs are $hite

Mercs - Rust?? cant believe they rust!!!

German build quality.... instead of saying what people think they want to hear, consider Honda or Toyota. Superior products that last, and im buying one when my Renault packs up even though its the same age as my Merc but looks like its done half the miles... so i may have it for many years yet?

 

[roofless]

thats what i was thinking when i had to go & jump start my wifes honda with my mk1 golf not

 

[Seeker_UK]

"MINIs are $hite"

Can't be - they use a Toyota diesel lump.

 

[stumpy]

I've driven and had the use of many German cars - Audi/VW, BMW and Mercs.

I am highly suprised that motoring journalists keep banging on about German build quality. It is i guess fashionable to say it even though their cars are crap.

Audi interiors - yes they look nice but they dont last long and as for the engines they are all old units modified.
2.0 FSI (Mk3 golf GTI engine without 'FSI')
1.4 TFSI (Lupo but without the turbo + sup)
1.6 FSI (skoda Octavia and other old VWs and the linked gearbox has a habit of failing)

Only me i think has noticed or is it only me who knows anything about cars? Feck Clarkson and that bearded tw@t on Fifth gear, who is the kind of tw@t that uses stupid cliches and sayings such as 'school boy error' etc.

BMW's diesel 2.0 units (powertrain a.k.a Rover developed) MINIs are $hite

Mercs - Rust?? cant believe they rust!!!

German build quality.... instead of saying what people think they want to hear, consider Honda or Toyota. Superior products that last, and im buying one when my Renault packs up even though its the same age as my Merc but looks like its done half the miles... so i may have it for many years yet?

The latest 2.0d BMW engine is incredible. I suggest you go for a lay down till you feel better about the world

 

[coventryslk]

I will go to bed, as im feeling anxious. As for the MINI diesel, yes Toyota but what about the Chrysler and Peugeot petrol engines?? $hit

 

[popuptoaster]

if you think the germans dont know about build quaility you havent owned an old Mercedes, they did just fine before they were told to stop over engineering cars. I've always had old cars as daily drivers and an old mercedes (im talking pre 1980) will go for MUCH longer than pretty much anything else ive ever had and usually ignored services and put up with minor things like misfires or smokey engines until it actually stops working completely.

 

[three pointed star]

The reputation for German build quality goes back years (they have after all been doing it longer than anyone else!) It’s a fact, that they were producing cars to a standard, with a degree if design integrity and attention to detail that we and the rest of the world could only dream of. Japan were not even a car manufacturing country then, certainly not on a global scale. No one is saying that there haven’t been some blips along the way, but by and large the core values remain. As for the use of outdated or obsolete engines etc, if it’s not broke, why try to fix it? I couldn’t care less if the engine under my bonnet was a 10-year-old design, as long as it proved to be reliable and durable, old (proven) is sometimes better. This is a site frequented by owners and in the main enthusiasts of THE oldest and one of the most distinguished motorcar marques in the world. If you do not share that passion, for whatever reason, may I politely suggest you vent your apparent disliking elsewhere.

 

[stumpy]

The reputation for German build quality goes back years (they have after all been doing it longer than anyone else!) It’s a fact, that they were producing cars to a standard, with a degree if design integrity and attention to detail that we and the rest of the world could only dream of. Japan were not even a car manufacturing country then, certainly not on a global scale. No one is saying that there haven’t been some blips along the way, but by and large the core values remain. As for the use of outdated or obsolete engines etc, if it’s not broke, why try to fix it? I couldn’t care less if the engine under my bonnet was a 10-year-old design, as long as it proved to be reliable and durable, old (proven) is sometimes better. This is a site frequented by owners and in the main enthusiasts of THE oldest and one of the most distinguished motorcar marques in the world. If you do not share that passion, for whatever reason, may I politely suggest you vent your apparent disliking elsewhere.

The core engine design in 2 of my cars is 50 yrs old and like you say, plenty of expertise around to look after them.

What I do agree with the OP on is the misconception that german cars are built in Germany and therefore better built. Hardly any are actually nailed together in Germany these days which leads to some problems I think. Jap stuff isn't any better in my experience. I've had 4 Scoobies and they all had problems (head gasket, gearbox etc) and the ex had a Jazz which needed a new carpet - twice!

 

[Seeker_UK]

I will go to bed, as im feeling anxious. As for the MINI diesel, yes Toyota but what about the Chrysler and Peugeot petrol engines?? $hit

Ever driven a Mini? One of the most fun cars you can drive (even the basic 1.6). **** engine? Why are they? In the car I drove, it pulled the car nicely, wasn't too noisy (unless I bootede it) and didn't use too much petrol either and by the sounds of things they're pretty long-lived too.

Personally, I'd rather take a Merc or BMW over any of the Jap s***boxes and shopping trollies - I'll leave them to the bodykit brigade and OAPs. WHen you get to 'proper' jap cars like the 350z - no thanks, the BMW335i goes faster with less thirst for petrol or the skyline and again, no thanks, a CLK55 will cost me less when it goes wrong.

 

[meanie]

To put this into a little perspective,the lease company that we carry out repairs for charge a premium for Japanese cars (especially Honda) owing to the high running costs-their words,not mine.
Tellingly,all their company cars are German,with the exception of 2 Peugeot 407's.
Go figure,cos that's what they do all day!!

 

[philharve]

Japanese cars v German cars

Hi All

My previous car was a Toyota Celica which I kept for 17 years because it was reliable and stylish transport. It suffered very few problems in its long life and it has proven to be both comfortable and economical. However, the day I stripped it of its more valuable/saleable items such as the radio+cassette and speakers, before sending it to the breakers, I suddenly realised how quickly it had deteriorated 'inside' in its final couple of years. Rust was everywhere. The build quality was pretty good but the materials used were poor. But despite this it was a good car. Rust in peace.

I do not expect my Mercedes to suffer old age in quite the same manner. I expect it to remain fresher for far longer and for internal rust - never! That's Mercedes build quality which is clearly evident in many 30yr+ Mercedes. I saw one such a example only yesterday, a long wheelbase 260 in black, immaculate both inside and out.

But is my Mercedes better transport than my Celica? That's a far harder question to answer.

REGARDS

Phil

 

[Myros]

If I compare all the old german cars I've had

to the similarly aged japanese, french, and british cars, guess what you still see most of......yep, mercs and bmws and audis and vws. not a coincidence at all, I'm sure.
even my old beetle felt better put together than my Dad's same reg 1968 Cortina. And it lasted way longer and needed less fettling. Mercs are the same but even better.
hadn't driven the sl for a month. went out expecting a dead battery and all sorts of fun, but guess what. started first turn of the key and off i went in cloud of petrol-rich fumes.
They really don't make them like thay any more.

 

[jberks]

Audi interiors - yes they look nice but they dont last long

oh come on - comapre a 10 year old german interior to pretty much everything else. a tenner says its the german one that looks freshest - be that a golf or an S class.

and as for the engines they are all old units modified.
2.0 FSI (Mk3 golf GTI engine without 'FSI')
1.4 TFSI (Lupo but without the turbo + sup)
1.6 FSI (skoda Octavia and other old VWs and the linked gearbox has a habit of failing)

Its the same company - using the same engines. Thats the point. We all know a skoda is a Seat is a VW is an Audi, just with a few nicer bits of trim as they go and heavier price tag. E.g. Audi grab handles are damped, skoda ones aren't.

Only me i think has noticed or is it only me who knows anything about cars? Feck Clarkson and that bearded tw@t on Fifth gear, who is the kind of tw@t that uses stupid cliches and sayings such as 'school boy error' etc.

Clarkson never claimed to know anything about cars. Quite the opposite. He just says what he likes and generally takes the mickey. As for 5th gear. I used to record it and watch in fast forward to find the few bits worth watching. Normally too 5 mins to watch the whole show. I was going to do it last night but could even be bothered to do that. It's just plain dull - sorry but the presenters simply aren't entertaining and car info I can get from a mag.

BMW's diesel 2.0 units (powertrain a.k.a Rover developed) MINIs are $hite

I did drive a 320d recently and to be fair, I wasn't impressed either. But I dare say live with one for a while and it may grow on you.

Mercs - Rust?? cant believe they rust!!!

For $*&^% sake. NO THEY DONT!
1998 - 2002 mercs rust. We're in 2009 now. Get with the new millenium. They F'd up. It happens. They've applogised and put it right - let it go!!
And this from someone claiming how great Jap cars are. If we're looking back, how many 1980's or even 90's Jap cars are still around? Now how many VWs, Mercs, BMWs or even Audi's? The Japs only discovered rust proofing quite recently. Up to that point they were rotting in the showroom!

[/QUOTE]
German build quality.... instead of saying what people think they want to hear, consider Honda or Toyota. Superior products that last, and im buying one when my Renault packs up even though its the same age as my Merc but looks like its done half the miles... so i may have it for many years yet?[/QUOTE]

In terms of faults per mile - ok Honda and Ytotya do have it. In terms of rattles per mile and yawns per mile they also score well, as they do in teh butt ugly interior stakes, with cheap plastics and poor detail. They also come on well under the "if you don't like the shape wait a min and we'll be along with another" as well as the "is it an Audi, is it a BMW, not its another Japanese copy" competition.
We have a 9 year old renault and its a great little buggy but to say it's ageing, at least bodily, as well as the mercs I've had would be ludicrous (interior is 100% but then it's only done 24k!).
Each to their own but....... really.

 

[Seeker_UK]

They also come on well under the "if you don't like the shape wait a min and we'll be along with another" as well as the "is it an Audi, is it a BMW, not its another Japanese copy" competition.

That's how Lexus started. Produce a MB clone but don't put a Toyota badge on it.

 

[mercmadjim]

German build quality.... instead of saying what people think they want to hear, consider Honda or Toyota. Superior products that last, and im buying one when my Renault packs up even though its the same age as my Merc but looks like its done half the miles... so i may have it for many years yet?

Ah Toyota, I had an MR2 roadster VVTI SMT, 0n a 52 plate, it went wrong, gearbox and ECU issues and Mr Toyota could not fix it, claimed they did not know enough about it !!!! PMSL.....NOT!

And as for Renaults I have had 3 of them and they were all cr#p.

 

[television]

German engineering, if we are still talking build quality, the I could have never have asked for more than what my MB's have given me over the years. I rate Swedish engineering highly and could not tell any difference between them

 

[Seeker_UK]

I rate Swedish engineering highly and could not tell any difference between them

Swedish engineering is pretty good (lets not talk about trashed engines in 2.0L 9-3s and 9-5s), the V70 I have at the mo is very well put together.

What lets Swedish cars down badly is that they cannot make a refined car. The new S80 V8 comes close but for the money, give me an E class any day.

 

[Seeker_UK]

And as for Renaults I have had 3 of them and they were all cr#p.

The good thing is though that as they tend to last huge mileages, they never noticeably deteriorate - they're ghastly from Day 1 when they come off the production line.

 

[truthfindergeneral]

The German Mini got some stick on Watchdog last night. Seems the power steering pump has been going as you drive along and the car becomes impossible to steer.

 

[PanzerMcGrory]

I have always said pound for pound honda is the best car around and my Accord type R was awesome.
Audis, had two and they both were utter sh#t with electrics straight out of a Skoda Estelle parts bin i think.
There is nothing to compare to the feel good factor of a Mercedes especially an E/S Class when your wafting along looking down the bonnet at the three pointed star.