Going from 0 to 4 NCB years.

Moocow

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I have read this many times before and do not accept the reasoning behind it.
Example. My son in law was stationary at a red traffic light in his car. He was hit from behind by a lorry driver not paying attention who later admitted liability. How does this make my son in law more likely to be involved in another traffic accident? And why should his premium be loaded because of a non fault accident?

You missed my point and I understand you are somewhat angry about it. I don't like insurance either, but I am trying to explain why it goes up in this case, it's not bull it's math.

It is because people who have been involved in an accident are (based on the evidence/history that the insurance company has access to) are statistically more likely to have a second or further accident than those who have no record of any.
It doesn't matter that your son in law didn't cause the accident, facts are that those who came before him did and that is perceived risk.
 

davemercedes

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I agree with AMGeed ... These companies use any excuse they can to screw you out of money - it's in their DNA to screw customers so they can make lots more money which looks like respectable business but we all know that it certainly isn't. The mathematics are purely a convenient way of arriving at how much they can screw out of you.

Insurers today in my opinion fall into the same category as bankers - once a profession that was highly respectable but is now nothing more than a necessary and frankly rather dirty "trade". In the example given where his son-in-law was the innocent party, it is absolutely ludicrous to declare that because he has been hit once, he's more likely to be hit again. If the insurers were genuinely interested in covering risk they should arrange to provide a greater level of cover for at least 1 x year and clobber the guilty party with that cost - not hit the innocent party!
 

AMGeed

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You missed my point and I understand you are somewhat angry about it. I don't like insurance either, but I am trying to explain why it goes up in this case, it's not bull it's math.

It is because people who have been involved in an accident are (based on the evidence/history that the insurance company has access to) are statistically more likely to have a second or further accident than those who have no record of any.
It doesn't matter that your son in law didn't cause the accident, facts are that those who came before him did and that is perceived risk.

Thanks for explaining it again, and I didn't miss your point.
I know why its done, and the reasoning, but I still don't agree with it and all the explaining will never convince me.
It's a totally unfair assumption that anyone sat at the lights who is hit, and not at fault will statistically be be involved in another incident.
I still call BS.
 

Moocow

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Fair enough, no point in carrying on really is there? You made up your mind long before I got here.
 

davemercedes

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Okay, but I made my mind up (probably like AMGeed) based on 60 years of being screwed by thos "respectable" people I mentioned!
 
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Conor

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You missed my point and I understand you are somewhat angry about it. I don't like insurance either, but I am trying to explain why it goes up in this case, it's not bull it's math.

It is because people who have been involved in an accident are (based on the evidence/history that the insurance company has access to) are statistically more likely to have a second or further accident than those who have no record of any.
It doesn't matter that your son in law didn't cause the accident, facts are that those who came before him did and that is perceived risk.

It might be all based on math, but bad math. The statistical model is obviously broken...

I mean the model mustn't have an input for fault or at least better detail - they probably put all parties involved in accidents into the same bucket, because that suits them.. You can be sure if it was the other way around they'd tweak their model.
 

400ixl

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Its always amusing to read the rants of those who have no knowledge of how an industry actually works and make wild assumptions.

Motor Insurance is not a very profitable business for insurers. A very profitable business makes maybe 7-10% profit, but it is often low single figures and for some a loss. They make their money by investing the payments they get in the time before they have to pay them out in claims. So they have the influence of the stock market to deal with as well as natural patterns such as weather etc (a bad winter can increase claims).

You may ask why do it then, well general insurance is a great way to upsell other more profitable policies such a life cover and is cheaper than other marketing routes.

They are always looking at risks that can influence the likelyhood of a policyholder making a claim and the actuarial calculations that go into this based on tens of thousands of factors make this very complicated, but far more accurate than you would ever believe when you take in the whole demographic. They are not broken and are continuously tuned with more and more data points and volumes added all the time to make them more accurate. It is not a binary you have been in a non fault accident therefore they get 2% added. It will be multiple factors just for that one incident that will be built into calculations.

Each insurer will also have a bias towards what part of the demographic they want to attract, and price towards those accordingly. Some may not want the risk of young drivers for example, so will price themselves out of that market.

They are always trying to attract new business, to get the follow on upsell. This means the most competitive price whilst maintaining the overall profitability, which means that they do take of advantage of the people who are not going to seek better prices. But thats what most businesses, not just insurers do.

I'd rather take the cheaper price even if it is to the determent of the lazy. Why should I pay more for being proactive than those too lazy to bother? Utilities companies are the same, Fuel companies likewise, they are no different.

Its a complicated business an no matter how much detail it is explained some will always just claim they are money grabbing b*******d's. So not expecting to change any minds, but it may actually reset some of the false information about.
 

ajlsl600

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They’re all thieves ! Hastings are trying very hard to sting me on my proposed replacement for my 202. They want almost double the premium for W204 C250 CDI Sport against my current W202 C280 v6. I expected an increase but not that much !!! I think they’re trying it on as l’ve only just renewed with them this month and I’m stuck for almost 12 months. Come renewal I’ll definately be going elsewhere. Their customer service is pretty dire too.


had similar issue . with hastings ,AND all others .a 03 r230 v12 sl was 190 then 230. then i changed to the ml250 blutec and my price went to 390!! i still dont get that. 500 + bhp sl600 to 205bhp straight 4..... that caught me out and pxxxxd me off , never claimed in 38 odd yr...
 

peterws1957

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I have read this many times before and do not accept the reasoning behind it.
Example. My son in law was stationary at a red traffic light in his car. He was hit from behind by a lorry driver not paying attention who later admitted liability. How does this make my son in law more likely to be involved in another traffic accident? And why should his premium be loaded because of a non fault accident?

I call bull s**t and detest insurance companies slimy tricks to bend over the customer to make even more profit.
Something else while I'm at it as its affected me recently.

I have been looking for an E63 since July, and at that time made a few enquiries about the cost to insure one. I got a good price from LV and saved it on my PC.
Fast forward to last week, I find my car and want to insure it.
Again, I search for prices and the price LV quoted just 2 months previously has gone up by £130.

Why? I'm 2 months older but nothing else has changed. I wanted to insure the car in both quotes immediately.
Has there been a spate of E63 owners crashing or having their cars stolen? Damned if I know, but insurance is a horrible neccessity and I view the industry with distaste.

There you have precisely why people get annoyed. Yes it is true that in the past Insurers made losses on their motor, and household accounts- they never made money. I don't believe that this is the case now though, since there are so many entrants into the market and new ones appear all the time. If it is still a loss making industry, why the massive interest?
I agree entirely about your son in laws experience - there is no reason to suggest that he is more likely to be involved in another incident, pure hokum (unless of course he does 100K miles a year like I used to).
As to the massive changes in premium, I've experienced this many times. Even in the space of 10 minutes or morning and afternoon. The lack of transparency is exactly what winds up the punters, but I was only in the insurance game for 25 years + so what do I know?
 

davemercedes

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The renewal for my S203 (2007 C Avantgarde Estate) just arrived. it went up from £350.88 to £373.41 and that's with 80% NCD i.e.: +£22.53 (=6.4%). The excesses have also been increased from £100 to £150 (Accident and Fire/Theft)- so if I make a claim it will cost me 50% more!

I wish my pensions would go up 6.4% (come to think of it, I wouldn't mind if they went up by as little as 1.4%!)

I had a go at the meerkats site and could get it down a little but then you have to look at all the extras (that they have to provide costs for nowadays - they're not able to just say "included" any more:

On my policy (LV) Protected NCD currently costs £29.38 and legal cover is £24.69 while the "guaranteed hire car" supplement (for a basic car - only for two weeks!) is £18.91. Using a non-approved repairer costs an additional £200 and Windscreens are now £95 (replaced) and £20 repaired - it was £10 a month ago!). This is the first time that glass has been listed on the renewal document too - I had a cracked screen replaced in 2017 and a 5p size chip/hole repaired a month ago and they're both listed. It doesn't appear to have affected the current premium but they're ready for it to be included in future so watch that space...

In the end I decided to swallow the 6% increase purely because of the variables on the extras and LV are easy to deal with - most of the time you get to talk to a human been for a query etc.

All those extras do add up but of course I know from the postings above, that these philanthropic institutions aren't making any money...
:D ...Okay - look up: "Oink Oink"
 
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Conor

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All those extras do add up but of course I know from the postings above, that these philanthropic institutions aren't making any money...
:D ...Okay - look up: "Oink Oink"

Agreed.. I've kind of settled on the same conclusion.. that because we the public are obligated to buy car insurance, we have no option, so the insurers offer it to us at a loss or break even. In the grand scheme of things, that's quite nice.....
 

EmilysDad

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T ..... and Windscreens are now £95 (replaced) and £20 repaired - it was £10 a month ago!). This is the first time that glass has been listed on the renewal document too - I had a cracked screen replaced in 2017 and a 5p size chip/hole repaired a month ago and they're both listed. It doesn't appear to have affected the current premium but they're ready for it to be included in future so watch that space... .....

it doesn't seem that many years ago that a replacement windscreen on a fully comp policy cost nothing. When they first started to charge for screens, repairs were free of charge and as you say, the initial £10 is now frequently £20

(our cars' insurances are due the week after next so have just done the on-line quotes)
 

davemercedes

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it doesn't seem that many years ago that a replacement windscreen on a fully comp policy cost nothing. When they first started to charge for screens, repairs were free of charge and as you say, the initial £10 is now frequently £20

(our cars' insurances are due the week after next so have just done the on-line quotes)
Good luck, then! It's only money... and you can't take it with you!
 

davemercedes

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Agreed.. I've kind of settled on the same conclusion.. that because we the public are obligated to buy car insurance, we have no option, so the insurers offer it to us at a loss or break even. In the grand scheme of things, that's quite nice.....
Oh... you mean they price it in our favour out of the goodness of their hearts? - I didn't know that!
 

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roblloyd

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So here is the situation.

I go insured on February 1st, 2019 after a 2.5 year gap in insurance. The majority of insurers had a maximum of 2 years gap, with the exception of Admiral. Admiral would allow my gap of 2.5 years, thus enabling me to get 3 years NCB discount.

This coming February I will need to renew. Will Admiral give me a certificate showing 4 years NCB, meaning I will back in action on the open market and will be able to shop around?

I consider myself to have effectively zero NCB February just gone because there was really only one insurer.

I will expect a significant drop when I go to the market this time around...err.. actually, maybe not because I will be adding my "new" R230 DL 500 :D but it should be useful.
On my renewal last year with elephant insurance they told me you cannot get NCB protected until my 5th year and thats all insurance company policy now.. Next month is my 5 year renewal so they been taking the **** and told me lies on the phone. Anyone think i can do anything about this?
Rob
 

Blobcat

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On my renewal last year with elephant insurance they told me you cannot get NCB protected until my 5th year and thats all insurance company policy now.. Next month is my 5 year renewal so they been taking the **** and told me lies on the phone. Anyone think i can do anything about this?
Rob
Protecting NCB is just another way of them making money...
Reason is that if you are unfortunate enough to make a claim then your premium will go up. When you query it and say you have protected NCB they say yes but you’ve have a claim so you’re more of a risk therefor your premium has gone up...
 

flowrider

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Protecting NCB is just another way of them making money...
Reason is that if you are unfortunate enough to make a claim then your premium will go up. When you query it and say you have protected NCB they say yes but you’ve have a claim so you’re more of a risk therefor your premium has gone up...
But if NCB is protected there will be the same discount just on a slightly higher base premium, without NCB the insured would have a higher base premium and a lower discount so would be hit twice.
 

sonic

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I am with Admiral each year the send me a renewal up about 10 to 20% on last year. I shop around find a deal the same as last year, & they match it.
 

Blobcat

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But if NCB is protected there will be the same discount just on a slightly higher base premium, without NCB the insured would have a higher base premium and a lower discount so would be hit twice.
They’re not a charity... the amount you’ll have to pay will be within a £ or 2 either way. They just made the difference off of you last year when you protected it.
 


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