Hit and Run no insurance

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I hear tonight that the hit and run female that killed the 11 year old had no insurance, how long will this fiasco of driving without insurance be allowed to go on with just a fine.
 

Alex M Grieve

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I hear tonight that the hit and run female that killed the 11 year old had no insurance, how long will this fiasco of driving without insurance be allowed to go on with just a fine.

It's a tough nut really. Short of the stocks and flogging, which we don't tend to do any more, it is hard to think of an effective deterrent. A recent article cited that almost no fines are fully paid, either promptly, or at all - so on the spot fines don't do it. Electronic tags and curfews presumably don't affect those who can't afford to go to the pub anyway.

In this case, the woman in question is now on remand and, if convicted, will certainly get a stiff custodial sentence - so as far as she is concerned, it won't be a problem in the immediate future.

Bright ideas seem to be lacking amongst the enforcers here. Do forum members have any?
 
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Celtic pride

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Why not get rid of road tax - it could be absorbed by petrol tax & make the road tax disc the insurnace certificate so all of the government cybermen (wardens, plods, community support officers et al) could check when you are moving or stationary?
 

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Yeah...... I keep upto date with the law !!

Cars are siezed these days ....... dont go down to well with the perpitrators ....... they seem to not keep upto date with whats gona happen to them !

They think there gonna get a producer, and a fine ............. then when the cars on the towtruck . they wake up ! ........... very funny to watch !
 

Alex M Grieve

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Yeah...... I keep up to date with the law !!

That is about as effective as flogging. Prevents people re-offending quite well, but does not seem to deter first offenders, who presumably either don't understand the law, or don't think it can ever happen to them.

Still, on the positive side we could see it as "low cost scrappage"!
 

hairyg

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I think the answer is fewer cameras and more police eyes on the roads with NPR cameras in their cars.

As it stands at the moment in large parts of rural England you can run a car without tax etc. for months without much chance of being picked up. If the car is seized you just by another old banger and carry on, its cheaper than insurance anyway. Without effective enforcement the law only influences the law abiding and makes them more vunerable, not safer.

Static cameras with NPR can detect an un-insured car but if the driver hasn't bothered to register it he/she is untraceable, making enforcement virtually impossible.

Stopping the driver at the time the offence is spotted has to be more effective. After all, it only the fear of detection that keeps us honest most of the time.

I often wonder how many of the cars I see on my rural meanderings are taxed, insured, MOT'd and so. It's been weeks since I have seen a patrol car, apart from a trip into London. Even then I only saw a couple in the entire weekend, although I heard a few in the distance.
 
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PanzerMcGrory

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In this case, the woman in question is now on remand and, if convicted, will certainly get a stiff custodial sentence - so as far as she is concerned, it won't be a problem in the immediate future.


Alex im afraid you are far off the mark with the "stiff custodial sentence"

This pond life will be lucky to get four years and what joe public does not know is she will only have to complete half her sentence no matter how she behaves in prison as legally you cannot serve more than half your sentence up to four years,
then on top of only serving half her sentence she will be eligible to be released even earlier under the early release scheme.

the point of sentencing is the public hear the length of sentence and are happy that they think justice is being done.

the govermnent know they only serve half the sentence so are happy the prison place is being freed up.

lawyers that you and i pay for to keep representing these scum are delighted as their "client" is feed early and can quickly provide further business.
 

Xtractorfan

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I think having knocked down someone and killed them is surely enough punishment for anyone with average intelligence and a conscience.
As for the driving without insurance, drink driving etc. surely only a system where the vehicle knows it is insured..the driver isnt drunk.. will be the fool proof way of keeping these idiots off the road..
 

Alex M Grieve

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Alex I'm afraid you are far off the mark with the "stiff custodial sentence"

Sadly Don, I fear you are right on all points. Our society seems to lack any meaningful remedies short of imprisonment, and the prison capacity is chronically overloaded, so that is no longer available. Whether imprisonment rehabilitates people (were they ever habilitated in the first place) is debatable.

And to hairyg's point, the only people really bound by the law are those who respect it anyway.

No, it's back to a graduated system of: fat lip, stocks, flogging, nick, gallows. (I think the colonials are wise to the deportation idea now!).

And all of it requires visible, effective policing.
 

coventryslk

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It's a tough nut really. Short of the stocks and flogging, which we don't tend to do any more, it is hard to think of an effective deterrent. A recent article cited that almost no fines are fully paid, either promptly, or at all - so on the spot fines don't do it. Electronic tags and curfews presumably don't affect those who can't afford to go to the pub anyway.

In this case, the woman in question is now on remand and, if convicted, will certainly get a stiff custodial sentence - so as far as she is concerned, it won't be a problem in the immediate future.

Bright ideas seem to be lacking amongst the enforcers here. Do forum members have any?

Warwickshire seem to catch a few people through ANPR - im having ANPR cameras set up somewhere in the county soon
 

Rory

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Warwickshire seem to catch a few people through ANPR - im having ANPR cameras set up somewhere in the county soon

Chances are that the car was covered for someone to drive so wouldn't have shown up on ANPR.

Adding 3rd party cover to fuel or road tax etc seems attractive but I think if that was allowed to be sufficient cover to drive then we'd have a nightmare of young lads killing themselves and innocent other road users driving the most powerful cars they could get their hands on - after all, such cars are available very cheaply now.
 

3146bj

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Chances are that the car was covered for someone to drive so wouldn't have shown up on ANPR.

Adding 3rd party cover to fuel or road tax etc seems attractive but I think if that was allowed to be sufficient cover to drive then we'd have a nightmare of young lads killing themselves and innocent other road users driving the most powerful cars they could get their hands on - after all, such cars are available very cheaply now.

Compulsory 3rd party cover is added to vehicle registration in Australia. In one or two states the cover is 'no blame' (i.e. the medical costs etc are covered regardless of who is at fault), in others it gets sheeted home to the person at fault. I'm not sure how the latter system works as I've always lived in a 'no blame' state. In Victoria, the 3rd party cover used to be provided by private insurers and you couldn't register a car without quoting a cover number. It all became a bit too hard, so one of the Labor governments set up a state government Transport Accident Commission which now runs it. Currently, the cost for a city based car is AUD378.00 per year (for comparison, 12 months comprehensive insurance for a 2008 VW Golf is AUD675).

Collection can still be a problem as some people don't register their cars either, and just knock off a set of plates from some law abiding person. But those people will never respect and abide by the law whatever they're threatened with.

Maybe the old way was best and we should exile them to some god-forsaken hole without cars or any of the comforts of home. You can't use Australia any more (too comfortable), so maybe a small lump of rock in the middle of the ocean? Oops, sorry, can't do that, it would infringe their human(???) rights.
 

Alex M Grieve

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Compulsory 3rd party cover is added to vehicle registration in Australia. Currently, the cost for a city based car is AUD378.00 per year (for comparison, 12 months comprehensive insurance for a 2008 VW Golf is AUD675).

Collective arrangements of this sort relieve the individual driver of having to remember the renewal, and the risk of finding inadequate insurance attractive because of it's low price. It also saves people being miss-sold, or buying insurance which does not match their needs. In the Australian case, it also seems to be cheaper and enjoys the economy of scale.

I was subject to a similar collective arrangement in the last company I worked for. Coupled to tax and MOT, the insurance was "all drivers" and comprehensive, with no excess. It was however coupled to company rules on the minimum age of drivers and excluded learner drivers - both the source of grief in other companies when young people took dad's company Jaguar for a spin (literally).

Cost was around £720 in our case, which compared badly with my own insurance which would have been around £250 - but it was a condition of the scheme, deducted at source - so you tended not to notice.
 

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Maybe the old way was best and we should exile them to some god-forsaken hole without cars or any of the comforts of home. You can't use Australia any more (too comfortable), so maybe a small lump of rock in the middle of the ocean? Oops, sorry, can't do that, it would infringe their human(???) rights.

Good idea that, so why don't we, the law abiding upright citizens of this once fine land, ALL get deported to a place suitable for US and leave this God forsaken Lump of Rock to all those that transgress the law along with the gypsy's thieves and tramps, Politicians, general scum, loosers of all types, nerds, freaks and hooded yobs. Before departing all male members that fit the above will have their testicles removed one by one....without the benefit of any pain depressant...

Light hearted maybe but I am so incensed by this problem and the unwillingness to fund and manage a solution head on with a fervor that delivers a strong uncompromising message which when required is delivered with force and 'no defence' allowed. This country is morally bankrupt and it is time for those that really care to take back the initiative..I told you I was incensed..
 
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Good idea that, so why don't we, the law abiding upright citizens of this once fine land, ALL get deported to a place suitable for US and leave this God forsaken Lump of Rock to all those that transgress the law along with the gypsy's thieves and tramps, Politicians, general scum, loosers of all types, nerds, freaks and hooded yobs. Before departing all male members that fit the above will have their testicles removed one by one....without the benefit of any pain depressant...

Human rights :( come into play now
 

Rory

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Collection can still be a problem as some people don't register their cars either, and just knock off a set of plates from some law abiding person.

So that's still pretty useless then, as a guarantee of 3rd party cover?

In the UK cloned plates are already a significant problem.
 

RiceBurner

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I hear tonight that the hit and run female that killed the 11 year old had no insurance, how long will this fiasco of driving without insurance be allowed to go on with just a fine.

As said before - if someone is already driving illegaly, banning them from driving won't stop them - just make them "more" illegal.


The only way to stop all this, really, is to have FAR more traffic police on the streets. Camera are pointless because even if the spot a car that isn't insured (via ANPR systems), they can't then stop it. That HAS to be handled by a human being.


It made me laugh out loud a month or two ago when a Police chief claimed that the level of traffic policing in his area hadn't changed in 30 years - they still had 20 traffic cars!! Obviously 20 cars is "the same level" when the amount of traffic has increased tenfold!!(or however much it is). :roll:
 

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I fear then the only real solution to uninsured tear away drivers is to remove their feet so they cannot drive and cause havoc. This would happen after 2 occurrences of the same offence

APNR, spot fines are a useless mechanism against the really anarchistic under class that prevails in the UK. APNR, spot fines are just a sneakly method of spying and raising money for minor traffic offences like speeding etc
 
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PanzerMcGrory

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I think having knocked down someone and killed them is surely enough punishment for anyone with average intelligence and a conscience.
As for the driving without insurance, drink driving etc. surely only a system where the vehicle knows it is insured..the driver isnt drunk.. will be the fool proof way of keeping these idiots off the road..

Dealing with these Untermenschen every day im afraid you are seriously wrong if you think 1% have any remorse for their actions.

These things are not like you or i and would not mourn the death of their own child like a normal human being let alone someone elses.
 

Alex M Grieve

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Untermenschen.

Don't the Germans just have the right word for every occasion?

Sadly, you are correct Don. We hear of the Baby P case and we are advised that social services, especially child care, are overloaded and are frequently subjected to aggressive and abusive behaviour.

What the fragrant ones in the government bunkers and think tanks do not seem to appreciate is that not all people are of the same mind set, breeding and ethics as they are.

Harriet Harman and Jacqui Smith have conceded that they do not feel safe walking through certain parts of London. Well, I have to say, there are lots of worse places where the police will only go either in groups or in fast cars.

New laws are not the answer. Enforcement of the ones we already have, with meaningful remedies for those who will not comply, is the first step that society needs to take.

The Untermenschen almost certainly do not realize, or recognize these differences.
 

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