I've decided to get my E350 M272 engine rebuilt.

[EmilysDad]

.....

That's cool. Have you any pics of the tool by chance? I will need all the inspiration I can get
....

I could probably find it at my Dad's somewhere but the V6 Granny engine was a pushrod set up. .... it was simply 2 arms welded to each side of a sleeve that was bolted down to the head using the rocker rail studs, the arms then pushed down onto the collet spring retainer while the collets were removed.

 

[Conor]

I could probably find it at my Dad's somewhere but the V6 Granny engine was a pushrod set up. .... it was simply 2 arms welded to each side of a sleeve that was bolted down to the head using the rocker rail studs, the arms then pushed down onto the collet spring retainer while the collets were removed.

Ok thanks.. it helps anyway. No need to look for it

Thanks a lot.

 

[steveq]

Your plan to just replace the valve seals makes sense to me.

As others have said, I would replace all the seals on that bank -- if not just all the seals on both banks. After all, they are all the same age/mileage.

I looked at a video of a guy doing it on a Merc (probably the same one as you mention above). He certainly struggled on the first one or two.

Once you have the 'going way' of doing the first couple the rest will be easy (I know, I know -- it won't be me doing it so very easy to say!!).

Best of luck.

 

[Conor]

Your plan to just replace the valve seals makes sense to me.

As others have said, I would replace all the seals on that bank -- if not just all the seals on both banks. After all, they are all the same age/mileage.

I looked at a video of a guy doing it on a Merc (probably the same one as you mention above). He certainly struggled on the first one or two.

Once you have the 'going way' of doing the first couple the rest will be easy (I know, I know -- it won't be me doing it so very easy to say!!).

Best of luck.

Yes Steve, the guy with the SL55, of Indian decent it might appear. The video is a credit to him.

You can come and observe/help if you wish

 

[steveq]

Yes Steve, the guy with the SL55, of Indian decent it might appear. The video is a credit to him.

You can come and observe/help if you wish

It would be good to be involved but I have spent a lot of time working on my old Pagoda over the past few months.
That has eaten into a) my domestic credits and b) my commitment to wielding spanners.

That said, replacing the valve stem seals is one of the (many, many) jobs that need to be done on my car too.

 

[Mr Greedy]

Apart from your time, replacing the seals sounds like a good low cash outflow option. Yeah, you might do the work and still have an issue. But if this sorts it, much cash saved! Worth a shot I reckon!

 

[LostKiwi]

You make it sound so easy LK..

But yes, that's the plan anyway. One of the outstanding tasks is to figure a way to reliably press the springs. Would you ever be concerned about the cam shaft popping up when turning over the engine? I guess you just keep your other hand on it...FIRM!

Do you need to remove the cams?
If they use rockers (and I think it does) you should be able to remove the rockers and then access the valve caps and collets.

 

[Conor]

Do you need to remove the cams?
If they use rockers (and I think it does) you should be able to remove the rockers and then access the valve caps and collets.

I believe uses rockers.. yes. So, no to removing cams.

If I remove I remove timing and well..we all know what kind of a can of worms that is.

 

[LostKiwi]

I believe uses rockers.. yes. So, no to removing cams.

If I remove I remove timing and well..we all know what kind of a can of worms that is.

Sealey Valve Spring Compressor Lever Type OHV/OHC | at Zoro

Sealey - Valve Spring Compressor Lever Type OHV/OHC available at Zoro.co.uk - UK's Leading Supplier of DIY Tools and Supplies'

www.zoro.co.uk

Might do the job nicely....

 

[Steve@Avantgarde]

Interesting project for you.

The 272 engine is a bit of a pita for the average home mechanic, mainly because it has quad variable timing and it takes a bit of knowledge to get the timing spot on and to time it up means timing the front and the back of the engine so the balancer shaft weight is in the correct position.

I would also recommend replacing the balancer shaft whilst you are at it, not so known to fail on the later 272s but not uncommon.

Depending on how you want to overhaul the engine, my go to places for general headwork rebuild and skims are price brothers in Avonmouth, but for any bore work or deep engineering I always use Anderson Racing Engines in Timsbury. As excellent as Frank and his boys are there, its always expensive, but I've not met any one better when it comes to engine reconditioning.

 

[Conor]

Interesting project for you.

The 272 engine is a bit of a pita for the average home mechanic, mainly because it has quad variable timing and it takes a bit of knowledge to get the timing spot on and to time it up means timing the front and the back of the engine so the balancer shaft weight is in the correct position.

I would also recommend replacing the balancer shaft whilst you are at it, not so known to fail on the later 272s but not uncommon.

Depending on how you want to overhaul the engine, my go to places for general headwork rebuild and skims are price brothers in Avonmouth, but for any bore work or deep engineering I always use Anderson Racing Engines in Timsbury. As excellent as Frank and his boys are there, its always expensive, but I've not met any one better when it comes to engine reconditioning.

Hi Steve,

Yes it is interesting alright. I think right now I am going to do just the oil stem seals and see how it goes. If it solves the oil burning problem, I will be a more comfortable place to consider other options.

Sealey Valve Spring Compressor Lever Type OHV/OHC | at Zoro

Sealey - Valve Spring Compressor Lever Type OHV/OHC available at Zoro.co.uk - UK's Leading Supplier of DIY Tools and Supplies'

www.zoro.co.uk

Might do the job nicely....

Yea, exactly. Something like that is what I have in mind.

 

[Conor]

It would be good to be involved but I have spent a lot of time working on my old Pagoda over the past few months.
That has eaten into a) my domestic credits and b) my commitment to wielding spanners.

That said, replacing the valve stem seals is one of the (many, many) jobs that need to be done on my car too.

I hear you, thankfully I don't currently have any management to report to.. but I do often say I could do with somebody to keep me in line!

What car of yours do they need doing on?

 

[Conor]

So guys.. quick update.

I've been researching this A LOT!

I had been basing my valve stem seal job on the guy who did his M113 on YouTube. He could do it with the cam and timing still in place.

I cannot find any evidence that I can do my M273 engine with cam in place. I am hearing rumblings that I need remove the cams to access and remove the springs... which appear to be corroborated by the few bad pics I have seen of the M272 valve train..

So this leaves me in a conundrum.

If I want to continue with the seals, I will need to sacrifice timing and re-time it afterwards, which I believe I a hard job on this engine..

If I decide to go that far I might as well go ahead and take the heads off and do the valve guides also.

It's looking a lot more liking driving it into the ground, again, Ted!

 

[steveq]

Hi,

Steve@Avantgarde is certainly saying that it isn't a trivial job to take on.
However, doing nothing is always an option - after all, it isn't broken.

Are the emissions for your MOT OK?
If so, with a good servicing regime it should go on for years.

By the way, the valve stem seals that need replacing are on my 1965 Pagoda. A much simpler job than your car, I suspect.
However, I have masked the problem by changing the engine oil viscosity spec.

 

[Conor]

Hi,

Steve@Avantgarde is certainly saying that it isn't a trivial job to take on.
However, doing nothing is always an option - after all, it isn't broken.

Are the emissions for your MOT OK?
If so, with a good servicing regime it should go on for years.

By the way, the valve stem seals that need replacing are on my 1965 Pagoda. A much simpler job than your car, I suspect.
However, I have masked the problem by changing the engine oil viscosity spec.

Hi Steve,

Yes.. I certainly feel like i'm making the wise choice of leaving it alone. Kind of a relief as I was definitely going to go at it if I could leave the cams on.. and that might have went very badly.

The emissions have been spot on (no decline) through my ownership since Jan 2019. Next one is August so will be interesting to see.

Yea I was going to put in 10w/50 before, but somebody warned me that on shorter trips it would never warm up..

 

[ajlsl600]

So guys,

It's been a while.. i've been totally snowed under with two other things. Work and working on my unmerc which has consumed all my weekends working physically.. and all my spare time learning about wiring looms and body work - prep, spray and most recently welding due a big hole I found.

Over the past 12 months I have been keeping an eye on my E350 that now has about 204k miles.

It's sick. The valve stem seals are shot on at least two cylinders. They definitely need doing. I'm also convinced the intake valves are totally caked up with carbon. I'm sure the carbon is the cause but the engine seems to knock a lot... Also, some days the car seems to drive totally sweet around town with instantaneous poke and no hesitation, other days not so much. I feel like i've probably not experience the full refinement of this engine yet.

I've tossed up the idea of just keeping the oil topped up (1.5 litres per 700 miles) and just driving into the ground.. What will ultimately happen is the cats will get destroyed and it will fail emissions.

But then it dawned on me.. if that happens I'll have to go back to the market to buy the same car again (I love that car). That will cost me at least £8/9k if I can find an S212 Petrol 350.

I also plan on keeping this car until the government tell me I need an EV. I simply love the car. Power, practicality and comfort. There is nothing to change to for my daily and any change will cost me.

So... the most outrageous one sounds like the most feasibly approach. Engine rebuild.

I'm currently renting a unit in my home town and when the Clio is done, I am going to take out the engine, strip down the ancillaries and send it to an engineering firm to be rebuilt. Definitely the two heads. Jury is out on bottom end rebuild but I feel if I am going this far I may as well.

I anticipate that by me doing the grunt work, it should reduce the cost (a bit).. And while the car is in this state I can tidy up a few other bits such as bushes, suspension body work (possibly new paint). Wheel refurb etc.

The logic is that I know the car, i've already replaced the PCV system on it, alternator and rear suspension air bags. Any car I get will likely need them too. If I do the above tasks, the car should be "like new".

And ultimately it will be reliable and cheap over the next handful of years. It currently stands me about £6k after 2.3 years. That's currently not bad. If I spend another bit and keep the car another handful of years it will make for some good value driving. I will have gotten more than my fair share of learnings from it (good and bad).

It's a win/win really.. unless the engine work is prohibitively priced (i've heard some horror stories).

View attachment 68444

Look full gasket set set rings b end and main shells,oil pump. Set of valve guides, cam and followers Costs first. Also interview the oil filter . If completely clean. No partials, you may not need crank grind
When you know those costs add 3,£400,for unseen and damage getting motor out
Then cost a lo miles replacement eng complete.
Do not buy any pattern internal parts.
Go from there.

 

[ajlsl600]

I am sure that with the correct books, patience and a little help this motor will not be rocket science to rebuild I never seen one yet I could not. Just make sure ur not in a hurry. I always read everything I can find on a first of overhaul, and go thru manuals and ensure I have the tooling or make my own version of same. Secret for me is never be in a rush. Never force anything, and be prepared to walk away for a while if it's turning into a shxxstorm. I have done from shxt and Stratton to v16, s, honda cb1000, 6 to z1000 to tz350. Can honestly say had no failures the odd leak at start up failure of bolt on attachments but no actual eng built dramas. It's all about preparation and common sense, and at times a little engineering skill.
I never put pattern parts in ANY engine where I am end user.

 

[Conor]

Look full gasket set set rings b end and main shells,oil pump. Set of valve guides, cam and followers Costs first. Also interview the oil filter . If completely clean. No partials, you may not need crank grind
When you know those costs add 3,£400,for unseen and damage getting motor out
Then cost a lo miles replacement eng complete.
Do not buy any pattern internal parts.
Go from there.

Hi @ajlsl600 thanks for your responses, I missed responding the last time.

I am going to price up the bits for top end only. I think i'll leave the bottom for now. Logic being that it's the top end I think all the trouble is.. I think the bottom should be sound for another while .. although I will be doing wet/dry comp tests.

Good point on the extra 3/400 for unknown unknowns...

This 350 CGI engine M272.983 is pretty rare in Europe to be honest.. no chance of a decent replacement. Plenty of them in the USA mind you.

I am sure that with the correct books, patience and a little help this motor will not be rocket science to rebuild I never seen one yet I could not. Just make sure ur not in a hurry. I always read everything I can find on a first of overhaul, and go thru manuals and ensure I have the tooling or make my own version of same. Secret for me is never be in a rush. Never force anything, and be prepared to walk away for a while if it's turning into a shxxstorm. I have done from shxt and Stratton to v16, s, honda cb1000, 6 to z1000 to tz350. Can honestly say had no failures the odd leak at start up failure of bolt on attachments but no actual eng built dramas. It's all about preparation and common sense, and at times a little engineering skill.
I never put pattern parts in ANY engine where I am end user.

Yea, I feel like I can do a lot of leg work for a top end rebuild. I mean, engine out, heads off and back on I can do.

Timing the engine seems well documented too and there is a training video online..

I'd outsource the head rebuilds though, i.e. valve grinding, valve guide install etc.

Would you be replacing tappets, lifters and all that jazz?

 

[ajlsl600]

Probrabrably if any signs of wear seen I hate going back into the motor.

 

[LostKiwi]

Looking at the parts manual it does look like cams need removing.