Jeremy Corbyn.

[d215yq]

Don't disagree, although because our entire economy is built on debt and only grows by debt stopping government borrowing quickly is not an option and would just lead to a huge crash. So I think we agree government borrowing should slowly be reduced and belts tightened but whilst it is still there then better to be spending it on infrastructure rather than cash payments. It thus follows that I'd be happier with a renationalisation of the railways/other natural monopolies instead of more help to buy, tax credits, benefits, etc.

As with the analogy to personal finance, I neither have a mortgage nor car finance nor bank loan because I'd rather have cheaper stuff that I own outright. That said, if I had to have one of the three I'd be happier asking for a mortgage than a bank loan or car loan.

 

[dry run]

I grew up in a family that mostly worked for the NHS. I didn't, but some of my kids do as doctors and dentists, so I have always had and continue to have a keen interest in what's going on.

Things have changed considerabley over the years, but ione thing seems constant. I cannot ever remeber a time when people working in the NHS have said "hey guys we've got as much money as we need"; NEVER

The NHS is a wonderful service ( there's nowhere else in the world I'd rather be seriously ill - if you get my meaning), but it has always had and always will have the ability to spend moire money that it's got.

Any promise by JC and Labour will not change that I'm afraid.

 

[M80]

I am digressing now, sorry.

I've said before that each person, generally, in our country represents a loading on the economy. Of course some more productive individuals are a financial benefit.
If a larger population equates to a better financial position for the country the national debt wouldn't continue to rise. In the short term though the Gov't can enjoy more tax revenue from the extra money that must be spent by a larger population, unsustainable.

The country can't afford to keep us going into our late 70's and beyond, aside from the fact that the old 'uns are less productive and a greater strain on the NHS we need to keep expanding the infrastructure to accommodate as young 'uns fill the work space the once occupied. We can see that this is more than can be achieved. And as will, and is, happening more will be living in and using less. Look at the Eastern Block, Russia, Ukraine, adults that should be developing their independent life styles are dependant on parents and living with them. An overcrowding that brings increased social issues.

A party that recognises the problems with continual population growth, not just immigration, and looks to manage it will gain my interest.

 

[Alfie]

For 42 years of the NHS's existence it has been under the tories and its still there. Despite all the doom mongers saying they are killing it. Its rubbish. Labour did a pretty good job of trying to kill it with all the PFI's it encumbered the trusts with! Plus there are now 11,500 more nurses in the NHS than there were under labour and swathes more doctors. Quite where these ridiculous claims that they are killing it come from, one can only assume its momentum again.

Interesting to read that Corbyn has just appointed Marsha Jane Thompson as campaign mananger. A momentum activist thats been convicted of election fraud (she pleaded guilty). She faked 100 signatures on registration forms.

 

[Craiglxviii]

I am digressing now, sorry.

I've said before that each person, generally, in our country represents a loading on the economy. Of course some more productive individuals are a financial benefit.
If a larger population equates to a better financial position for the country the national debt wouldn't continue to rise. In the short term though the Gov't can enjoy more tax revenue from the extra money that must be spent by a larger population, unsustainable.

The country can't afford to keep us going into our late 70's and beyond, aside from the fact that the old 'uns are less productive and a greater strain on the NHS we need to keep expanding the infrastructure to accommodate as young 'uns fill the work space the once occupied. We can see that this is more than can be achieved. And as will, and is, happening more will be living in and using less. Look at the Eastern Block, Russia, Ukraine, adults that should be developing their independent life styles are dependant on parents and living with them. An overcrowding that brings increased social issues.

A party that recognises the problems with continual population growth, not just immigration, and looks to manage it will gain my interest.

Except that in this country the population is growing through nett immigration, not through increased birthdate of the established population (eg. Those who have been living here for 3 generations or more).

 

[Craiglxviii]

For 42 years of the NHS's existence it has been under the tories and its still there. Despite all the doom mongers saying they are killing it. Its rubbish. Labour did a pretty good job of trying to kill it with all the PFI's it encumbered the trusts with! Plus there are now 11,500 more nurses in the NHS than there were under labour and swathes more doctors. Quite where these ridiculous claims that they are killing it come from, one can only assume its momentum again.

Interesting to read that Corbyn has just appointed Marsha Jane Thompson as campaign mananger. A momentum activist thats been convicted of election fraud (she pleaded guilty). She faked 100 signatures on registration forms.

But that’s alright, because she’s a leftie.

Now sell me an Aux adapter cable for COMAND APS please

 

[charlysays]

I grew up in a family that mostly worked for the NHS. I didn't, but some of my kids do as doctors and dentists, so I have always had and continue to have a keen interest in what's going on.

Things have changed considerabley over the years, but ione thing seems constant. I cannot ever remeber a time when people working in the NHS have said "hey guys we've got as much money as we need"; NEVER

The NHS is a wonderful service ( there's nowhere else in the world I'd rather be seriously ill - if you get my meaning), but it has always had and always will have the ability to spend moire money that it's got.

Any promise by JC and Labour will not change that I'm afraid.

Of course not, there are endless places to spend money in healthcare. There always will be. You just have to look at waiting lists to see that there isn't enough funding to provide safe, timely care. People waiting way past the guideline times for cancer treatment for example, adversely effecting their chance of survival. That's not acceptable especially when enough money to ease the problem is being spent on rubbish like bombs and high speed railways.

 

[Alfie]

But that’s alright, because she’s a leftie.

Now sell me an Aux adapter cable for COMAND APS please

Sure, email me your VIN to sales@comand.co.uk. Im sure we can sort something out ;-)

 

[Craiglxviii]

Of course not, there are endless places to spend money in healthcare. There always will be. You just have to look at waiting lists to see that there isn't enough funding to provide safe, timely care. People waiting way past the guideline times for cancer treatment for example, adversely effecting their chance of survival. That's not acceptable especially when enough money to ease the problem is being spent on rubbish like bombs and high speed railways.

Except we need bombs- they’re the ultimate arbiters of foreign policy, by “bombs” I mean a defence strategy and a properly funded MoD to carry it out. And we need, well not high speed railways but better infrastructure, both empirically better and better- maintained.

This really is a problem where no easy or pleasant solution exists. We NEED to cut the waste and fat from government. We NEED to make the entire economy about 34% more productive. We NEED to invest in continuous very high value add innovation at a nation- state strategic level. And that’s just to put us on the road to improvement.

 

[charlysays]

For 42 years of the NHS's existence it has been under the tories and its still there. Despite all the doom mongers saying they are killing it. Its rubbish. Labour did a pretty good job of trying to kill it with all the PFI's it encumbered the trusts with! Plus there are now 11,500 more nurses in the NHS than there were under labour and swathes more doctors. Quite where these ridiculous claims that they are killing it come from, one can only assume its momentum again.

Interesting to read that Corbyn has just appointed Marsha Jane Thompson as campaign mananger. A momentum activist thats been convicted of election fraud (she pleaded guilty). She faked 100 signatures on registration forms.

I'm not sure who momentum are, will have to look them up.

Just do a google search for "NHS funding vs GDP" and you will find that the NHS is currently suffering the longest decrease in funding as a percentage of GDP in its history. While your at it look up waiting lists in the NHS.

Waiting lists are currently back at the 4million mark and set to reach 5m by 2020 if there isn't a significant injection of funds- which will be a record high. The long sustained drop in funding vs GDP and the waiting lists speak for themselves- the govt are making the NHS dangerous. These are not "claims" but hard data. Ofcourse there will be more doctors and nurses than there were nearly 10 years ago- that much is obvious due to population increase as well as increased work loads due to increasing numbers of elderly people. This is a classic tory diversion tactic of just quoting numbers and comparing them to an irrelevant point in the past when labour were in power.

Another example of this is them going on about how they've "reduced the deficit" whilst national debt has doubled under this govt- all this running things into the ground isn't actually working to get the country into the black.

If you don't look at a figure in relation to all the other figures it does not give a true picture.

Jeremy Hunt himself said a few years ago in a book that he wrote that he thinks the UK should adopt an American style healthcare system- found by a study to be among the least efficient in the world. Yet we can't afford to give the NHS more money? That is ridiculous- we can't afford the second most cost efficient health service in the developed world but we can afford one of the least efficient lol.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Charly,

That comment ignores one key element. What are the reasons behind the growing pressures on the NHS? More critical accidents? Critical illness on a growing trend? The last time I heard (NHS spokesman) on this topic it was pointed at the increasing NHS resource being directed at treatment of the elderly. The comment was made that what is really needed is a separate health/ care service that is directed at the elderly eg complex and specifically tailored medical needs , the level of this currently required being a major resource sink for most hospitals currently.

 

[dry run]

I don't get why some people think that the Conservatives are against the NHS whilst Labour are its saviours! The conservatives under Cameron "ringfenced" NHS budgets when all other departments were having to make drastic cuts - doesn't seem very anti-NHS to me?

The labour government went mad with PFI funded "vanity" projects which currently cost the NHS around £2billion a year for the next 30 odd years - another Labour "we'll spend it now, someone else can pay for it in the future" idea! Going well isn't it?

 

[davemercedes]

Politicians of every colour are responsible for the NHS mess.

Nowadays they're repeatedly saying things like "we can't afford to care for the elderly" etc and in the same breath they're muttering about the cost of pensions. But the problem is that we - especially the elderly, for example have a fully paid-up contract for medical attention that is not free - at the point of sales as some politicians say, actually - it's prepaid! Personally I started paying National Insurance when I was 15 and every year it seems there was some discussion about what we could afford and the price of prescriptions etc but each and every political party totally bottled properly reviewing the regular fees necessary to maintain the insurance that the workforce paid.

Many people, (like me) also had at least some degree of private insurance (I was fortunate enough over the years to have 3 x procedures carried out in private hospitals because of it). Do any of them get a reduction in their National Insurance costs? - No of course not but but people who were fortunate enough to have medical insurance, actually reduced the drain on the NHS. Personally I never begrudged National Insurance payments even when I could go private and a consultant's secretary told me that by switching on to his private list I was freeing up a space for an NHS user.

If any company signed an agreement to provide goods and/or services at a price then later found it could not afford to do so then the management would probably be rightly subject to deep cuts because they have failed to effectively manage their business. The same applies to the NHS and Government pensions - if they are struggling to cover their costs it's not the customers' fault (unless they are to blame for living longer). No - it's the management who like today, say one thing thing and do another and fail to fix it. The real damning thing about it is the way in which the government of the day (of either persuasion) just lies - like the way they trumpet the money going into the NHS but secretly play with numbers and even call old budgets "new money".

Unfortunately those still in work have a terrible shock coming soon because when somebody eventually bites the bullet their stoppages are going to go through the roof.

 

[Frontstep]

Its certainly not prepaid 80% of the costs of the NHS come out of general taxation anybody who uses a hospital is usually well ahead financially almost as soon as they get admitted,
National Insurance contributions rates;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...d-allowances-national-insurance-contributions
We pay diddly for it with NI.
We have a parasitic private system which totally relies on the NHS to staff it and pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
I have breezed through into various private facilities understanding full well that it helps me and the provider only if everyone had to use the NHS their would be a huge outcry.
Although its trendy to wail about the state of the NHS its still pretty good.
I turned up for a scan and was out of the place done and dusted and back in my car in 20 minutes.

 

[davemercedes]

Me too - the scan was done in a lab next door to the private hospital... at first it feels rather strange to be treated like a customer!

But HMG told me (and you) that I had to pay £X for nhs cover and they also took £Y out of my salary too. So far as the system goes, we kept our side of the contract (most of us had no option) so sorry, what I get is definitely prepaid at the point of treatment.

Throughout my 50 years of "membership" no government has ever come out with a full review setting out what was truly needed nor how it would be funded - because just like transport, it's a political football that gets kicked into touch according to ther prevailing strength (or lack of) of the government. The country really needs something like a 10 year plan with a gradual overhaul of the amount and method(s) of funding.

I get quite irritated the way every politician plays up to the "wonderful NHS" and "wonderful NHS staff" while screwing the system down and in our area we had the death of a young boy because they closed the paediatric emergency department and young pregnant women having (initially) to make their own way to the county hospital (they finally put on a bus service but it still adds a couple of hours bouncing about etc for a woman carrying a child. Still, they'll all be queuing up to get the best award from the honours list later.

It's very easy then for people, especially politicians to link this into pensions and having taken money off me with periodic illustrations of how much I would be paid in retirement and now they're making the same noise and they have the temerity to talk about pension "benefits". Well, I don't get benefits, I receive the return on my investment as promised for the same 50 years!

 

[Headhurts]

I’m probably going to get slammed but here goes.

The NHS is staffed by some good people and some not so good people, just like any place that employs huge amount of people.

In my life I have had two operations, one a hernia op carried out at Nuffield Health Hospital in Ipswich, this was done privately.

I was greeted at reception and shown to a lovely room overlooking woodland with en suite toilet bathroom, a TV on the wall.

I was visited by restaurant staff to take my food order, the anaesthetist, the surgeon and made to feel relaxed and valued.

The operation went superbly and the follow up care was superb.

My second operation was NHS, on arrival for my op which was scheduled between 2 and 4pm there were still people waiting from 10am.

An operation is stressful at the best of times, I eventually went down for the op at 6pm, the surgeon had the wrong notes and seemed distracted.

I woke up on a mixed ward with people all around me wandering about there was no nurse to be seen.

I had an inner ear operation to cut my tympani tendons (I hope this is spelt correctly) to ease tinitus.

I had been diagnosed with inner ear myoclonus which is extremely rare.

The consultant had misdiagnosed my problem and the two consultants who I subsequently saw said they would not have diagnosed my problem as such and neither would have offered this op.

I’m now left with the original problem plus constant hissing in the ear.

I am aware this is not an exact science and problems do happen.

My mother who at the time was 80 plus was taken in to a NHS hospital for an operation on her stomach she was released the following day despite protestations from the family that it was too early.

Her stitches burst open during the night and part of her stomach came out, she was rushed back to hospital and operated on again.

She was released 2 days later but was again taken back in due to infection.

The rush to get her out in fact took up even more resources than if she had been kept in for the appropriate recovery time.

My brother David was admitted with an infection on the brain or similar, we watched him deteriorate over the course of a month, there were promises of him being admitted to Addenbrooks for a biopsy but this was not done despite the hospital not knowing what was wrong with him.

I visited him one Christmas morning and did not think he would see the day out.

He did and felt so ill he dismissed himself against advice to go home and we thought to die.

He cut back on his drugs and slowly improved, several years later he is still with us.

We seem to have a special place in our hearts for the NHS but it’s an institution just like many others, no one works for free and there are good and bad staff and hospitals.

In an emergency there is nothing to compare but from my experience we accept long delays and sometimes bad service because it’s the NHS.

We are paying for this it’s not free.

No matter which government is in power there would never be enough money for it without radical reform.

This is not a pop at the NHS just from my perspective an honest view.

Robin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Craiglxviii]

And Robin that is THE valid point. We are all paying for the NHS. It’s not a privilege. It’s paid for via our comprehensive taxation system. That means that we, every single taxpayer, are entitled to a standard of care equivalent to that one would expect of a private healthcare system into which one has contributed a similar amount (that is, around £2,200 per head of population for this financial year). If we don’t get that- and we don’t, by a very long chalk- then we are not receiving value for money. Put very simply.

 

[Frontstep]

A mixed set of comments but the general opinion that we should receive a good standard of care I share.
The problem is us as in so many of the general populace, the expectation that we can stuff ourselves with crap, lead an indolent lifestyle and the NHS will pick up the pieces.
We are masters at finding excuses for ourselves.
Never mind those who press the self destruct button with drink, drugs and dangerous pursuits or are simply stupid.
Then there are those who don't like what they have or are.
This clogs up the system.
There is also the bigger problem of hospitals stuffed with six figure earners using amazingly expensive equipment and drugs being paid for by a population who average five figure salaries.
If the hospitals only had people who were there through bad luck or sensible planning they would be able to offer a concierge service.

 

[davemercedes]

A mixed set of comments but the general opinion that we should receive a good standard of care I share.
The problem is us as in so many of the general populace, the expectation that we can stuff ourselves with crap, lead an indolent lifestyle and the NHS will pick up the pieces.
We are masters at finding excuses for ourselves.
Never mind those who press the self destruct button with drink, drugs and dangerous pursuits or are simply stupid.
Then there are those who don't like what they have or are.
This clogs up the system.
There is also the bigger problem of hospitals stuffed with six figure earners using amazingly expensive equipment and drugs being paid for by a population who average five figure salaries.
If the hospitals only had people who were there through bad luck or sensible planning they would be able to offer a concierge service.

None of which excuses what has happened to the service which as said above, we pay for. As I said, politicians of every persuasion keep ducking and diving over it but the headlines are not wrong - it has never been so bad in fifty years.

There are a lot of people who have to go to hospital for things that just happen - in my own case, I've had operations via private services and the NHS for the effects of osteoarthritis and a urinary job - neither of those conditions came about through stuffing myself with crap or leading an indolent lifestyle - I was always too busy working to take care of my family and saving for my retirement (but that's just another gripe!)!

My two examples above of a child who died (while the ambulance crew begged our local* hospital to let them take him there) but because they had closed the paediatric emergency ward they insisted he should go to the county hospital. And then the closure of our prenatal ward which meant women with child having to get to the county hospital that is half an hour away (if you have a car) in perfect traffic but maybe an hour sometimes. Both these things happened it's claimed, due to staff shortages while the politicians in power kept on claiming there are more nurses than ever and saying they had put so much "new money" into the NHS (they got caught out on that one!).

NB re: local* (above): Our general hospital is fairly modern, with generally very good, conscientious staff and the town population
is c.85,000 - so I'm not talking about a dinky little "village" facility.

As I said earlier, the NHS is a political football and we, those who fund it and expect to get the right level care have to put up - as we have for at least thirty years with lies, damned lies and statistics - and you can get away with anything if you juggle those.