Let's get things in proportion

[Bolide]

Everyone who complains about Mercedes cars, service & reliability - and some days, it has to be said, that appears to be everyone on this Forum - might like to read these two threads. They may help them acquire a sense of perspective:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=117965&f=152&h=0

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=6&t=306027

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[stumpy]

I see your point Nick, but does anyone expect a TVR to be built properly? I don't. While my Griff was in for a service recently there was a Tuscan on the ramp waiting for its third engine in 2 years. Oh, and its third set of brakes too. The worst thing TVR did was start building their own engine. The old Rover donk is pretty bullet proof and makes all the right noises, unlike the S6s and flat plane V8s. I hold that engine and its associated poor PR for the company as a large part of why the Russian wants out.

 

[television]

It was anounced two days ago that the UK plant was closing and production was to carry on in Russia 200 jobs to go, there will be some good engineers for MB now, maybe a few more cars to come to a little end.

malcolm

 

[johnmc]

Yeah, one of my colleagues had a Cerbera and now a Tuscan Speed 6.

Both cost a pile in repairs. Sorry to see those jobs go. We have to moan about quality. We're British, and it makes us feel better. Might even get something done about it..!

John

 

[Bolide]

My point is not that TVRs are bad - I draw no conclusion there, same as I draw no conclusion about Mercedes from some of the whining on this forum - but that there are extremes out there that MB owners thankfully never experience

I think MB products / dealers / service generally aren't extremely bad (and perhaps not extremely good either) and the TVR posts should remind us of that and help us get some perspective

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Parrot of Doom]

I don't think its fair to compare a mass produced luxury car with a hand built sports car?

BTW, TVR didn't build engines - Melling did.

 

[Tony]

The worst thing TVR did was start building their own engine. The old Rover donk is pretty bullet proof and makes all the right noises, unlike the S6s and flat plane V8s. I hold that engine and its associated poor PR for the company as a large part of why the Russian wants out.

I agree, but TVR's problem was that the 3.5 V8 was going out of production and was getting very hard to source. It was still a stupid decision to start building their own engines. It's too expensive for small companies. They should have looked around for another source. Mercedes seem to happily sell their engines to anyone (Ssanyong for example). TVR could have taken off the balancing shafts and knocked a hole in the silencer and Bob is the uncle, as they say.

I wonder if the move to Eastern Europe will work out. It's OK moving a mass produced production line abroad, but TVR's are largely hand built and rely on the skill of their work force. I suspect that quality will deteriorate, even though it'll be cheaper to produce.

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

I think you've missed the point too Bolide. If you buy a TVR you expect it to fall to pieces and breakdown all the time. If you buy a Merc you dont. I'm also a bit concerned by a couple of people on this site who feel it should be a fan site rather than a forum, where everone joins on to say how wonderful life is while MB's in the world (to paraphrase Elton John). Those that do have issues or are disapointed at buying a Merc but getting TVR build quality and reliability have a very valid point and should not be classed as "whingers" or "commoners" as I believe one person said.

There seems to be an idea by some members of the forum that others only come on here to moan and do so because they have some kind of personal gripe against MB. This is not so, people complain because the have had problems of have spent a great deal of money and been sold a pup or treated like dirt. This may be a very small percentage of overall MB owners but it is unfair to say they are "whinging" when they have valid grievances.

If you want to come on to this forum because your MB is the best car in the world and you want to tell everyone about it, then that is great. Everyone likes to hear good news. If you want to come on for help because you have problem with your car, that is also great. There are lots of people here to try and help. If you just want to say hi to people that's great to. Personally I'm just here to see what picture Hannah's put on from day to day

btw, for all you TVR owners out there, I know how badly built and unreliable they are but I would still buy one today if I could. Just not as my only car.

 

[television]

As Bolides posting, just thinking of the scale of things,take just the S class, 400 cars a day being built, that's 2000 cars on a 5 day week or 2800 for a 7 day week, how many S class complaints do we have over a year, ? 4 - 6 at the most. I know on some cars like with the water in the gear box, and exhaust ports in heads have caused a stir, but I think in most cases they did get sorted out in the end,without cost. In the case on company owned cars, large firms don't care that much about a bill, as it comes straight off tax. When the small engine div of Rolls Royce was in existance,I supplied them with a lot sound equipment, there was no arguement or question of any guarantee, no one cared so I charged for everything. Mybe its the same with MB or the dealers, the wording in WIS for these repairs certainly reads that way, if someone makes enough fuss,then its fixed free. If you take the Beckhams of this world,are they going to argue over a bill, I doubt it.
Perhaps the fault is more to do with the dealers and attitude, through out the whole motor trade there is a shortage of electronic engineers that know anything about the modern systems in todays cars, this causes concern with privat buyers, My good friend has a Volvo S80 in for repair with an ABS fault and they cant find it, its been in 4 times in 4 weeks, the car is undrivable in the fault condition as the power steering goes.
when I study the build of my SL,and the sheer amount of things in it scare me to death, but I could have bought a Fiesta instead.

Malcolm

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

but I could have bought a Fiesta instead.

Malcolm

I think you may the right choice.....

however, a bit further down the food chain things are not always as they should be. This is a quote from the Top Gear website.

"For many searching for their ideal management motor, the three-pointed star alone will be enough. But beware; those that have been there before you are appalled by quality"

This is not one or two people on this forum whinging about their cars. I'm not saying they are all like this, as you say Malcom they make rather a lot so there will always be some people that get the "Friday afternoon car". I'm just saying that those people that do get a duffer have just as much right to vent steam as those who come here to parise MB to the hilt. For those that are interested, mine has been fine since those couple of issues that were sorted out under warrantee I'm just disapointed that it is not as well put together as my A6 was. I suspect your SL is a slightly different animal.

 

[Tony]

Perhaps the fault is more to do with the dealers and attitude,
Malcolm

That's exactly it. It's not that the cars go wrong that often but when they do go wrong it usually involves a lot of visits to the dealer to get it put right - and that's if they do manage to put it right. Also you can never talk to anyone who actually knows anything. You're stuck with a useless "customer service representative" or whatever they're called, when you want to talk to a competent mechanic - there's usually one even in Merc dealerships.

 

[stumpy]

One experience recently has taught me to shop around. My BMW M5 engine was sounding a bit diesely, the noise coming from the Vanos unit. It's a well know weak spot and costs thousands to correct. I took the car to my normal dealer of 5 years, they had a listen and said it was fine. Not convinced I took it to another dealer for a second opinion. Net result, car booked in next week for new Vanos units under warranty.

My point is, if we are not happy with service or expertise from a particular dealer then go somewhere else. (If you didn't like the food or staff in a restaurant, you go somewhere else.) Yes it's a ballache if the garage is miles away, but it's also a ballache sending the car in 3 times when 1 should be enough. We mustn't tar all with the same brush.

BTW, my TVR has given me far less problems in 4 years than all my other 'proper' cars.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

I think you've missed the point too Bolide. If you buy a TVR you expect it to fall to pieces and breakdown all the time. If you buy a Merc you dont. I'm also a bit concerned by a couple of people on this site who feel it should be a fan site rather than a forum, where everone joins on to say how wonderful life is while MB's in the world (to paraphrase Elton John). Those that do have issues or are disapointed at buying a Merc but getting TVR build quality and reliability have a very valid point and should not be classed as "whingers" or "commoners" as I believe one person said.

There seems to be an idea by some members of the forum that others only come on here to moan and do so because they have some kind of personal gripe against MB. This is not so, people complain because the have had problems of have spent a great deal of money and been sold a pup or treated like dirt. This may be a very small percentage of overall MB owners but it is unfair to say they are "whinging" when they have valid grievances.

If you want to come on to this forum because your MB is the best car in the world and you want to tell everyone about it, then that is great. Everyone likes to hear good news. If you want to come on for help because you have problem with your car, that is also great. There are lots of people here to try and help. If you just want to say hi to people that's great to. Personally I'm just here to see what picture Hannah's put on from day to day

btw, for all you TVR owners out there, I know how badly built and unreliable they are but I would still buy one today if I could. Just not as my only car.

They certainly do it for me!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

btw, for all you TVR owners out there, I know how badly built and unreliable they are but I would still buy one today if I could. Just not as my only car.

They're not at all badly built, and they're not as unreliable as you'd think. The finish and fit on models since the early 90's is absolutely superb.

I had a Chimaera, cost me over £2000 in ten months of ownership, excluding the usual running costs. I'm saving for another. They're utterly amazing cars, the main issue with mine was a dicky fuel pump connector somewhere.

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

I suppose it's not really fair for me to comment as I've never owned one. Like I say, I'd definately buy one if I had enough disposable cash.

I suppose you can't always go on hear say. My brother had a S3 Lotus Esprit Turbo SE. Lotus, as we all know, stands for "Loads of Trouble, Usually Serious" but he had no problems with it at all. Did all his own servicing mind. Lotus wanted £1500 to change the cam belt because you need to drop pthe engine apparently (forgive me if this is incorrect, I'm not terrbily technical). He did it himself for £30. He is an engineer by profession though so oily things don't hold the same fear for him as they do for me. I tell you, that was a VERY quick car!

 

[television]

I think you may the right choice.....

however, a bit further down the food chain things are not always as they should be. This is a quote from the Top Gear website.

"For many searching for their ideal management motor, the three-pointed star alone will be enough. But beware; those that have been there before you are appalled by quality"

This is not one or two people on this forum whinging about their cars. I'm not saying they are all like this, as you say Malcom they make rather a lot so there will always be some people that get the "Friday afternoon car". I'm just saying that those people that do get a duffer have just as much right to vent steam as those who come here to parise MB to the hilt. For those that are interested, mine has been fine since those couple of issues that were sorted out under warrantee I'm just disapointed that it is not as well put together as my A6 was. I suspect your SL is a slightly different animal.

Yes there will alwys be a Friday everything, and yes I do feel very sad when some guy has a string of problems. I am quite alarmed by the amount of cars that go in for one repair and come out with another fault, and the dealer will say not our fault, we have had a few of those this last few months, and I have a couple where people have Emailed me. I do not think that my car is a different animal, there is one hell of a lot to it though,every single panel is full under the lining panels. I would never trust anyone else to remove the whole rear of the inside to get to something.
Re engineers, Garage A has a very good name for their guy is red hot at finding faults, eventually he gets head hunted and no longer works there. so the garage name goes down hill, while the one that took him on starts doing good work. I have known firms that have to stop trading because their best engineer has left. When it comes to the faults themselve,, eng: A may be super at doing one job, but hopeless at another. It would certainly pay MB outlets to have one super guy mobile. your car could be booked in say on a Thursday as that's the day the super man calls. I made the switch from valve to solid state,in the 60's, and then to logic and digital,not easy as everthing that you have learnt has to go out of the window, many eng; fell by the wayside, those fresh from college may know how it all works, but they lack the wisdom and for sight. if you do not analize the fault quickly, the job becomes a loss
The way the Japs did things was when I had the sole service rights for Nakamichi in the UK (£1000 tape decks from the 70's) if some one had a bad fault, their machine was replaced. Once a month the engineers from Japan would fly over to look at the faults and read the comments from the owner, the faults were logged and shortly a mod was done and all machines coming in for service were updated without question or cost. if you can understand what I am talking about and mix that with customer loyalty which is nil, it is a sad world. On the bright side there are many electronic devices waiting just around the corner to replace mechanical components that have served us well over the years, its cheaper and lighter.Nothing is as it used to be.

Malcolm
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