Loads of carbon in oil filter cavity

rx6180

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I changed my engine oil today and got a unwelcome surprise that I'd not seen before in 8 years of ownership of my W202 series C200. I'd drained the sump, then when I unscrewed the oil filter cap, oil came out over the top and ran down the engine. That chamber is normally near enough empty when I get to taking the filter out after draining the sump. Without the filter, it was half full of dirty oil this time, and it drained VERY slowly, coming out of the sump, until it reached the raised stub at the bottom of the chamber, that locates the filter seal, then I had to get rid of the rest by sucking it out with my battery test thing without the float in it. Then there was loads of black sludgy carbon particles in the bottom of the chamber. There is some kind of spring valve device (I admit I don't know what it is for) and to the left of that is a machined ring about the size of a penny, with three 'fins' inside it. This usually has a little bit of carbon around it but I don't usually worry about it. This time I had to excavate it with a small screwdriver, and I had to keep scraping the carbon out and wiping the screwdriver on a rag, and then keep poking a clean rag into the chamber and push it around with a screwdriver tip. I've only tried to clean this chamber out once before and it didn't seem worth it so since then have left it, but it was so filthy with carbon this time.

One thing that was different when I took the filter cap off is that the filter stayed behind in the oil, wheras it normally comes off with the cap, but I could have sworn it was located properly the last time I fitted a filter. The other thing is that for a few months now I've been filling up with Super Unleaded instead of Premium fuel, mainly because I'd read that Total do not put ethanol in their Super Unleaded and I was showing my support because I'm anti-ethanol. Do you think the Super Unleaded has been cleaning my engine and depositing carbon in the oil filter and clogging things up? All I could do is put a new filter in and fill up with fresh oil, and I have to say the engine does not seem any worse for it all. Does it all sound a bit ominous or is there a simple explaination for the filled oil filter cavity? I change my oil every 4000 miles which is more frequently than MB requires, so I can hardly be accused of neglecting maintenance.

Mick
 

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I wouldn't want to venture a guess on the cause, but clearly something has caused more contaminants to enter the oil. Do you always use the same oil? I'd run the car a thousand or so miles, pop in one of those "engine flush" additives with the oil and replace the oil and filter again, just to try to get it cleaned out a bit better.
 

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Hi
I look forward to the replies to this.
What I want to know is, do you replace the two o rings every time you change the oil filter?
 

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Strange one. Only times I have seen sludging like that was due to leaving oil in the motor too long. If you are doing all short runs with engine temps staying cold, this can help to cause this. Are you using a good oil? Is the thermostat working properly - working above 80°C? If it was a diesel, overfueling can also cause this but yours is petrol...
I hope you didn't really mean hard carbon particles and only meant sludge?? Hard carbon in there would be a weird one. A good oil is meant to dissolve carbon and hold it in suspension.
Wonder if you somehow assembled the filter wrongly last time and created some sort of blockage?
Be interesting to hear comments from others.
 
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I wouldn't want to venture a guess on the cause, but clearly something has caused more contaminants to enter the oil. Do you always use the same oil? I'd run the car a thousand or so miles, pop in one of those "engine flush" additives with the oil and replace the oil and filter again, just to try to get it cleaned out a bit better.

So it doesn't sound good then? Yes I always use the same oil, Castrol Magnatec. It's getting on for about 60 quid a time now (well, I need 5.75 litres and it only comes in 4 litre containers at getting on for 30 quid each at Halfords) so I'll be chucking good stuff away, but I must admit I'm a bit worried about this so it might pay me to do another change sooner rather than later.
 
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rx6180

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Hi
I look forward to the replies to this.
What I want to know is, do you replace the two o rings every time you change the oil filter?

Sorry, I don't know which 'o' rings you mean. So the answer is 'no'. Wherever I've bought the oil filters from, and whatever brand is on the box, they always come with a sealed bag containing a large 'o' ring for the groove on the oil filter cap (so okay then, I replace one 'o' ring) and a new copper washer for the sump plug. That's all I know about. Of course the new filter has a rubber o ring of sorts on its underside, but that is bonded in.
 
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rx6180

rx6180

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Strange one. Only times I have seen sludging like that was due to leaving oil in the motor too long. If you are doing all short runs with engine temps staying cold, this can help to cause this. Are you using a good oil? Is the thermostat working properly - working above 80°C? If it was a diesel, overfueling can also cause this but yours is petrol...
I hope you didn't really mean hard carbon particles and only meant sludge?? Hard carbon in there would be a weird one. A good oil is meant to dissolve carbon and hold it in suspension.
Wonder if you somehow assembled the filter wrongly last time and created some sort of blockage?
Be interesting to hear comments from others.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I use Castrol Magnatec which isn't a rubbish brand of oil, not at those prices! I've always used 10W40 semi synthetic. The thermostat is fine. I had to replace one years ago when I first bought the car, but the current one still operates normally. I have recently changed my job so the run to work has changed. It used to take me 15-20 minutes and now it only takes me 11-12 minutes but the car is still warmed through by the time I get there, at least according to the temperature gauge and the fact the demister works. However, particularly on the way home, the road is a 60mph road not long after I've started off - not immediately, but it doesn't take long to get there, and while I don't like hammering cars, there is always someone right up your a*** if you aren't going fast enough for them, so it would be fair to say the journey might be a bit tougher on the car than the stop-start traffic light route I used to take to my old job.

I can only describe the particles I found as hard carbon I'm afraid. Of course they were in oil and very small, but nonetheless black bits of carbon when wiped off the screwdriver tip onto a rag. This is the first Mercedes I've owned and the first car I've had where the oil filter fits into a hole in the block, so I've had nothing to compare it with before in that sense, and the small amount of carbon particles I've seen in there before I've regarded as normal. With spin off oil filters that hang down, you just bin the lot and don't look at it.

Did I mention the mileage? 132,000 on a 13 year old car. I could have assembled the filter wrong last time in theory, but it would be a first and I had no inkling. I used to get the filters from a local assessory shop - they used to be Crossland, then Fram or Coopers I think, but the shop started becoming less efficient at stocking them and more expensive, so it seemed as easy to get them from Halfords and they looked the same as the Crossland ones I used to get. I can't see how but I'm wondering if the filter dropped off the cap as I was screwing it in last time. I'm not sure this Halfords one I just fitted snapped onto the cap as tightly as my old filters did. Still, this time I had trouble finding the pipe stub at the bottom and couldn't pick up the threads on the cap. When I eventually did, I'm in no doubt this latest filter is fitted as well as it can be.
 

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As mentioned in an earlier post, I use Castrol Magnatec which isn't a rubbish brand of oil, not at those prices! I've always used 10W40 semi synthetic. The thermostat is fine. I had to replace one years ago when I first bought the car, but the current one still operates normally. I have recently changed my job so the run to work has changed. It used to take me 15-20 minutes and now it only takes me 11-12 minutes but the car is still warmed through by the time I get there, at least according to the temperature gauge and the fact the demister works. However, particularly on the way home, the road is a 60mph road not long after I've started off - not immediately, but it doesn't take long to get there, and while I don't like hammering cars, there is always someone right up your a*** if you aren't going fast enough for them, so it would be fair to say the journey might be a bit tougher on the car than the stop-start traffic light route I used to take to my old job.

I can only describe the particles I found as hard carbon I'm afraid. Of course they were in oil and very small, but nonetheless black bits of carbon when wiped off the screwdriver tip onto a rag. This is the first Mercedes I've owned and the first car I've had where the oil filter fits into a hole in the block, so I've had nothing to compare it with before in that sense, and the small amount of carbon particles I've seen in there before I've regarded as normal. With spin off oil filters that hang down, you just bin the lot and don't look at it.

Did I mention the mileage? 132,000 on a 13 year old car. I could have assembled the filter wrong last time in theory, but it would be a first and I had no inkling. I used to get the filters from a local assessory shop - they used to be Crossland, then Fram or Coopers I think, but the shop started becoming less efficient at stocking them and more expensive, so it seemed as easy to get them from Halfords and they looked the same as the Crossland ones I used to get. I can't see how but I'm wondering if the filter dropped off the cap as I was screwing it in last time. I'm not sure this Halfords one I just fitted snapped onto the cap as tightly as my old filters did. Still, this time I had trouble finding the pipe stub at the bottom and couldn't pick up the threads on the cap. When I eventually did, I'm in no doubt this latest filter is fitted as well as it can be.

Been thinking more about this. Carbon particles can only come from combustion, meaning from around the pistons.
Your forced change of driving habits would result in your motor having to work hard way before proper operating temp is reached. This would mean piston to bore clearance would be excessive, resulting in combustion blowby and loosening of carbon deposits. Your motor has done quite a few miles over a long period and would be coked up quite a bit around the rings. Perhaps this explains the carbon particles. The sludging also could be a result of the excessive blowby, contaminating the oil with combustion products and unburnt fuel. This sludging would not only be in the oil filter - it would be in the sump too.
Short of a better explanation, this seems a plausible theory.
Solution - gently warm up motor properly before venturing on to the motorway. A good flush of the motor wouldn't go astray either. The use of a fully syn oil would probably help too.
 

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You are being robbed if you are paying that money for CASTROL GTX Magnatec 10w40 semi-synthetic- which by the way is only "semi synthetic" by legal definition not by the conventional definition. There are lots of better true semisynthetics around --FUCHS, Shell Helix Millers Mobil to name a few- and they come in 5 litre containers meaning that one container will suffice to facilitate an oil change--- you don't have to fill to the full mark - better 1/2 way between full and empty.
 
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Been thinking more about this. Carbon particles can only come from combustion, meaning from around the pistons.
Your forced change of driving habits would result in your motor having to work hard way before proper operating temp is reached. This would mean piston to bore clearance would be excessive, resulting in combustion blowby and loosening of carbon deposits. Your motor has done quite a few miles over a long period and would be coked up quite a bit around the rings. Perhaps this explains the carbon particles.

Thanks for giving my problem so much thought. Something has definitely changed and it may well be that my altered journey to and from work has got something to do with it. I will be doing a flush through and change the oil and filter again in a few weeks, if for no other reason, to check if the oil filter chamber still appears semi-blocked when the cap comes off. I may also take it a bit easier when I hit that 60mph road a few minutes after driving away from work. I didn't put my foot down until the temp gauge was on about 1/4 anyway (40C?) but I might just toddle along and to hell with the hot heads behind me in their Audis!
 
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You are being robbed if you are paying that money for CASTROL GTX Magnatec 10w40 semi-synthetic- which by the way is only "semi synthetic" by legal definition not by the conventional definition. There are lots of better true semisynthetics around --FUCHS, Shell Helix Millers Mobil to name a few- and they come in 5 litre containers meaning that one container will suffice to facilitate an oil change--- you don't have to fill to the full mark - better 1/2 way between full and empty.

Yes if I've got to do another oil change in a few weeks I'd more or less decided I'd use another brand. Was thinking about Mobil which MB used to have some kind of link with once, did they not? I'd always thought Shell Helix was the equivalent of Castrol Magnatec - I used to use Shell in a Toyota in the 90s, which is what the dealer filled it with on a service. I've not heard of FUCHS though - Millers, yes, I've used their classic oils on other cars.
 

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Yes if I've got to do another oil change in a few weeks I'd more or less decided I'd use another brand. Was thinking about Mobil which MB used to have some kind of link with once, did they not? I'd always thought Shell Helix was the equivalent of Castrol Magnatec - I used to use Shell in a Toyota in the 90s, which is what the dealer filled it with on a service. I've not heard of FUCHS though - Millers, yes, I've used their classic oils on other cars.

Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 is a fully synthetic oil and is very good. Usually quite a bit cheaper than Mobil 1. Lots of MB dealers are now using the Shell product.
 

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The 60mph drive should be much better for the eventual longevity of your engine than the stop start traffic. That's got me thinking: engines do tend to corbon up terribly in stop start traffic, and the recent change of driving habit may have caused the build-up of filth to be released, rather than it being a new deposit.

Personally, I've simply seen more sludge with Castrol (admittedly with normal old GTX mineral oil vs. other mineral oils), so I do not recommend Castrol. But as I stated, this is a personal preference based on experience, and not on scientific research.

The other option is to drive it a thousand or so miles, and remove the filter to check the housing. Provided you don't drop it (or try to clean it!), it should be fine to put back just as it is. This should give you some indication of the progress of the problem.
 

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Just a couple of comments for the op.
1) Don't worry about the earlier mention of 2 "o" rings. They don't apply to the M111 4 cylinder engine in the 202. The only separate "o" ring is the large one which seals the oil filter cap.
2) I run my W202 C200 on Mobil Super S (now called 2000, I believe). It does about 4k miles a year and I tend to do a mixture of general running about plus stop / start running. I change the oil & filter annually and have never had a problem with carbon build up.
Good luck with it all.
 
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Personally, I've simply seen more sludge with Castrol (admittedly with normal old GTX mineral oil vs. other mineral oils), so I do not recommend Castrol. But as I stated, this is a personal preference based on experience, and not on scientific research.

My stepfather used to hate Duckhams, claimed it caused mayonaise in the rocker box. Still, that was way back in the 70s and 80s. My engine has never been to bits but looking through the top of the oil filler hole, what I can see of the cam lobes look superb with no gunge of any kind.
 
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Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 is a fully synthetic oil and is very good. Usually quite a bit cheaper than Mobil 1. Lots of MB dealers are now using the Shell product.

In a local motoring shop this afternoon I've seen a brand called G-G-G-Granville 10W40 s-semi synthetic m-motor oil, £16.60 for f-five litres. Trouble is, the till in the shop tries to snap the blokes hand of when he tries to give you change for t-twenty pounds. :D
 
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The 60mph drive should be much better for the eventual longevity of your engine than the stop start traffic. That's got me thinking: engines do tend to carbon up terribly in stop start traffic, and the recent change of driving habit may have caused the build-up of filth to be released, rather than it being a new deposit.

My old place of work had several car parks for a number of businesses, but the gate I used was sometimes congested come home-time, which meant you started up and sat in a queue to get out. More than once I sat in the car park with my engine turned off waiting for the queue to disperse, rather than labour the engine at fast idle with my foot on the brake and the transmission in 'drive', waiting for the queue to move forward. Then shortly before I left in November, as a 'safety measure' for pedestrians, a number of chicanes were installed, funnelling two lanes into one near the gate. I'm glad I left for a number of reasons, but I wasn't looking forward to the queue to leave at night with those lane control measures.
 
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If anyone is still following this thread regarding carbon and an apparent blockage last week in my oil filter chamber when I changed my oil, today I took MechPhil's advice and lifted the oil filter from its housing, except he suggested doing it after 1000 miles and I've probably only done 60 or 70. I wanted to see what was happening. I'd driven the car a few miles around town so the oil was warm and thin. At first when the cap over the oil filter cleared its threads, I wasn't too impressed as oil came over the top and spilled down the engine, and once again the filter was left behind instead of coming out with the cap. But this time, when I drew the filter out, the oil in the chamber quickly drained away leaving just a tea spoon full in the lowest part. Last week the oil had slowly decended with a trickle emerging from the sump drain hole and had stopped when it fell below the pipe stub at the bottom of the filter chamber, the rest having to be syphoned out. I'm assuming that the oil didn't drain as well this time, as it normally does on an oil change, because I'd left the sump plug and all the engine oil in, so back pressure was keeping oil in the filter chamber until I lifted the filter out. The bottom of the chamber looked clean too, so it seems disaster is averted. Does anyone know what that little machined ring at the bottom of the chamber is for, with the three little fins in it? Is it supposed to trap dirt, and be cleaned out at every oil change? I only did it once before, picking bits out with a screwdriver, then thought I'd be wasting my time as I couldn't see a service mechanic going to such trouble, but this little feature at the bottom of the chamber was almost buried in carbon silt last week. What about the nearby spring valve, is that the bypass valve in case the filter gets blocked? I presume oil goes into the filter from the outside, and filtered oil goes down the central stub pipe, is this correct? With regard to my oil filters dropping off the black cap when I remove them, I used to think they lifted out with the cap. I've recently started getting my filters from Halfords. I used to use a local motor factor and originally he stocked Crossland filters, which I thought were good, then he couldn't get those any more, and he stocked Coopers filters and said they were all made by the same people, and then it became that when I went in he hadn't got any in stock and had to order them for me. His prices had gone up too, so I tried Halfords, found they looked like the old Crossland filters, and tried those, but I'm wondering if the fits and tolerances aren't so good. I was a bit worried when refitting my warm filter today that it would slide off the cap before I'd screwed the cap down, but I don't think the cap would go right down if this happened, probably meaning it is unlikely I'd fitted the last filter wrong when I got the big carbon build up.

I'll probably change the oil and filter again at 1000 miles or so; it might be a waste of money but it might be best to be sure all the loose carbon is gone. I'm not sure about flushing oils but I definitely won't use Wynns Engine Flush. I was looking up flushing oils on the Internet and came across debates on forums as to whether it was good or bad practice. It was mixed. Some said that 'engine flush additives' in particular can remove carbon from around the pistons that on old engines helps to seal the scraper rings, and that loosened carbon deposits can block up oil ways. I was reminded that back in 2003 I had an old Vauxhall Viva for a time, as a classic car. It wasn't very good and the engine was truly knackered, blowing fumes out of the oil filler like a second exhaust pipe, but at least it did start and run. Someone suggested that an engine flush might help the fuming problem, so I added the Wynns additive, ran the engine at fast idle for ten minutes then did an oil and filter change. Initially it seemed okay (in terms of starting and running, no change with the fumes) but shortly afterwards it just became virtually undrivable, misfiring and jerking at anything above idle speed. I was convinced the engine flush had done something to it. No amount of setting the ignition or cleaning the carburettor would improve it, and eventually I sold it as a non-runner, as it did pack up completely for a time. I did manage to get it going shortly before the new purchaser came for it, but I also noticed there was no lubricant getting to the tappets. I had assumed until now that it must have been like that when I bought it, but after reading others comments on engine flush additives, I wouldn't be surprised if I blocked up the oilways to the tappets when I did the flush. Anyway, I won't use that stuff on my Mercedes. The reason why I've gone for Castrol Magnatec oil in the past is because I liked to believe in its low friction additive properties, and it appears that the supplying dealer used Magnatec during intial services according to the service book. Cheers, Mick.
 

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Yes, I have been following your thread.
I agree with you re proprietary flushing oils. I would only use a very light cheap grade of ordinary engine oil, run it for 20 miles and let it out hot. That should remove any excess sludge around the place. Then fill with a good multigrade and run for a few thousand miles. If the oil and filter look good after that, resume ordinary servicing but use a GOOD fully syn oil.

On one other point, the savings made buying NON OE oil filters are insignificant when compared to the damage that can occur if they don't do their job. I believe genuine oil and air filters are worth buying for peace of mind. In my time as a dealer, I have seen problems with non-genuine filters and there is NO comeback as you could get from MB if the article proved faulty.
 

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Sounds like the return of the black death, we used to see a lot of that at one time.

I thought it a thing of the past till abut 5 years ago my indy showed me a huge pile of gungy sticky carbon on his bench, apparently underneath this muck were a couple of not very high mileage heads from a V12 out of CL600, he's had a couple go the same way.

When i first read your post, alarm bells were going off that you had a Diesel with injectors allowing combustion blow by, but i assume yours is a petrol.

Difficult to say what i'd do at this point if the car was mine, i'd be inclined to whip the rocker cover off if you haven't already and see what's lurking underneath, then if you find anything nasty obviously you'll be cleaning it out by hand, then consider removing the sump and having a thorough clean inside, especially the oil strainer.

If i use semi synthetic oil it doesn't stay in the car for long, and i don't leave fully synthetic above about half recommended change intervals either.

The problem is unless you start with a well maintained lowish mileage car, you have no idea what cost cutting has gone on in its previous life...a used cars tyre fitments are a fair guide to the previous owner..if its shod with cheap Chinese rubbish then i assume the previous owner maintained the car with similar attention to quality.
 


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